But I am sure you are referring to anyone who can prove that he is flip-flopping against the war. In my opinion someone can vote for the war but against funding. Perhaps there is too much funding already? As for everything else, I have no proof of anything. I am sure we can all look at those videos that are surfing around the internet, but ideas and issues change with the times. These are not exactly credible. So I agree with you, I would like to be informed on flip flopping.John Kerry's stance on the Missouri Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage must be seen in relation to his over concerning states' rights. Both Kerry and Edwards have stated that they believe decisions related to marriage law should rest in the jurisdiction of the states. Their consistency on this position has been demonstrated in their refusal to support Bush's Federal Marriage Amendment. John Kerry did not "flip-flop" in his statement concerning the proposed Missouri amendment; he merely reaffirmed his longstanding commitment to defending the right of the stated to decide the question of marriage amendments on their own.
Kerry voted to authorize the President to make the call when he thought it was right. He should be faulted for delegating his authority, but that does not mean he voted for what unfolded in March of 2003.DanGeo23 said:~Kerry voted for authorization to use force in Iraq
DanGeo23 said:~on Face the Nation Kerry said that voting against 87 million dollars additional funding for the war in Iraq would be "irresponsible"
~on meet the press TIM RUSSERT: “Do you believe that we should reduce funding that we are now providing for the operation in Iraq?” SEN. JOHN KERRY: “No. I think we should increase it.” RUSSERT: “Increase funding?” KERRY: “Yes.” RUSSERT: “By how much?” KERRY: “By whatever number of billions of dollars it takes to win. It is critical that the United States of America be successful in Iraq, Tim.”
~Kerry then voted no for additional funding
~Kerry then chastised the Prez by saying that soldiers are dying because they didn't have adequate equipment.
I understand that he did think that Saddam was a threat, but this was based on many years of CIA intelligence claiming he had WMDs. I also think it understandable to feel like this decision was wrong when you find out [or feel like] you voted because of a 'lie'.DanGeo23 said:~during the first Democratic primary debate Kerry said "“George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.”
~he then claimed only to threaten the use of force "I voted to threaten the use of force to make Saddam Hussein comply with the resolutions of the United Nations."
he had access to the same intel that the Prez did.. he came up with the same opinion... he just didn't have to make the call...jung said:I understand that he did think that Saddam was a threat, but this was based on many years of CIA intelligence claiming he had WMDs
TZ said:Transcript of Meet The Press
DanGeo - did you just make that stuff up or is it someone else lies?
Transcript of Face the Nation
DanGeo:DanGeo23 said:~Kerry voted for authorization to use force in Iraq
~on Face the Nation Kerry said that voting against 87 million dollars additional funding for the war in Iraq would be "irresponsible"
~on meet the press TIM RUSSERT: “Do you believe that we should reduce funding that we are now providing for the operation in Iraq?” SEN. JOHN KERRY: “No. I think we should increase it.” RUSSERT: “Increase funding?” KERRY: “Yes.” RUSSERT: “By how much?” KERRY: “By whatever number of billions of dollars it takes to win. It is critical that the United States of America be successful in Iraq, Tim.”
~Kerry then voted no for additional funding
~Kerry then chastised the Prez by saying that soldiers are dying because they didn't have adequate equipment.
~during the first Democratic primary debate Kerry said "“George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.”
~he then claimed only to threaten the use of force "I voted to threaten the use of force to make Saddam Hussein comply with the resolutions of the United Nations."
~on Hardball he claimed to be an anti-war president.
if this is just about the war then here is some.. but I have to go... I gotta be up for Reserves in the morning... I'll post more tomorrow...
what a stupid thing to say to someone that may go there.. and may face that possibility... I'm glad to see that things are so simple in your mind... Bush = Bad... Anybody against Bush = Good...VOR said:Gotta be a little nervous about those Reserves, eh buddy? Ready to die for absolutely nothing?
I would say it safe to write voice off as a moron, he can't make an intelligent post based on fact, rather weak attempts at flames. but back to bush being bad, it's fairly safe to say that bush has brought much ill to our government, i'm sorry if you don't see this. maybe you should look further than cnn or fox news for your information.DanGeo23 said:what a stupid thing to say to someone that may go there.. and may face that possibility... I'm glad to see that things are so simple in your mind... Bush = Bad... Anybody against Bush = Good...
you only lessen the credablilty of your previous statements about kerry. I'm not impressed with the bush campain's "playing" with scare tactics either. the bush camp have managed to leverage the 9/11 tragedy as a tool for their campaign. Implying that in bush's absence in office america would become weak and fall to terrorit attack. the sad part is people are naive enough to believe this. fear is indeed a powerful social tool and using fear of foreign threats is a well documented psychological tactic. leaders have historically used this tactic in order to unite people under them. (hitler did it by making it seem as if poland was a threat to germany, for example, when it was all staged)DanGeo23 said:please let me know how many of the "flips" were from stances before 9-11... that changed afterwards... all politicians change their minds... and we don't know what else the bills contained... however not all politicians blatently play both extremes of every issue depending on whom they are speaking in front of.... like JK..
Ok, he voted no for a certain bill that provided additional funding. This bill also provided for other things and had other portions. Unfortunately he doesn't get to for part of the bill and then leave the rest out. This is how the legislature works. A bill goes to vote, it fails, they usually try to rewrite it in a way so that more people will go for it. You can be for more funding and still vote agaisnt a specific funding bill. That's not "flip-flopping". "Flip-flopper" is just one of those nice second-grade name-calling tactics that idiots like to use (yes, even idiots on the Democrat side of the fence).DanGeo23 said:~Kerry voted for authorization to use force in Iraq
~on Face the Nation Kerry said that voting against 87 million dollars additional funding for the war in Iraq would be "irresponsible"
~on meet the press TIM RUSSERT: “Do you believe that we should reduce funding that we are now providing for the operation in Iraq?” SEN. JOHN KERRY: “No. I think we should increase it.” RUSSERT: “Increase funding?” KERRY: “Yes.” RUSSERT: “By how much?” KERRY: “By whatever number of billions of dollars it takes to win. It is critical that the United States of America be successful in Iraq, Tim.”
~Kerry then voted no for additional funding
Holy shit! That almost resembled a logical argument. I mean, all you have to due is strip the rhetoric, name-calling, over simplification and massive amounts of logical fallacies, then you're left with "What _____________ 9-11 ____________ Politicians __________ Bill ..." All you have to do from there is fill in the blanks. Thanks for presenting us with the epitome of a sound argument. We all feel more informed thanks to you.DanGeo23 said:what a stupid thing to say to someone that may go there.. and may face that possibility... I'm glad to see that things are so simple in your mind... Bush = Bad... Anybody against Bush = Good...
ohh and I didn't look at the link but please let me know how many of the "flips" were from stances before 9-11... that changed afterwards... all politicians change their minds... and we don't know what else the bills contained... however not all politicians blatently play both extremes of every issue depending on whom they are speaking in front of.... like JK..
I feel that I do look at most logical sides of issues.. and I come up with my opinions that way...jung said:maybe you should look further than cnn or fox news for your information.
surely Bush isn't to blame for this... its not how a soldier should act in my opinion.. many people knew it was wrong.. I do however find it amazing that those pictures struck more outrage then the beheading videos... maybe because the US isn't expected to act in such a manner.. and we expect it from the other side...jung said:The Abu Ghraib Prison Photos
there are no doubts in my mind that people were detained that were innocent... but the article doesn't draw a line between being held for questioning and being held for months in a prison setting... the ethnic/religious comment in my estimation is based on someones opinion of the war.. that the US is against Arabs and that is there way of saying it..jung said:International human rights standards continued to be flouted in the name of the "war on terror", resulting in thousands of women and men suffering unlawful detention, unfair trial and torture – often solely because of their ethnic or religious background.
Wow.. BTW I was a tanker for 4 years while I was on active duty... that was just wrong if all they were doing was stealing "scrap wood".. and then the heart string story about the taxi.. not sure if I believe the extra commentary.. but what the soldiers did in my opinion was wrong.. and I hope they are being disciplined accordingly...jung said:A video of what we do to scrap wood 'looters' -
not an absence of Bush but the presence of Kerry in my opinion... I do believe that if we return to the complacent years of the 90s where terrorist attacks against us were largely overlooked... we will be more unsafe..jung said:Implying that in bush's absence in office america would become weak and fall to terrorit attack.
I have always been of the mindset that military service doesn't always mean that you will be a better leader... or that you will handle the tough situations better... Unless you were a General ..jung said:Clinton had no military experience and was a draft dodger. well, I could see the appeal in that to some,but now Republicans seem to have found a way to convince many in this country that George W. Bush, who has a meager level of military experience, can handle the terrorist issue better than Kerry,
yes he has the wartime military experience.. but I think that anyone that looks at his service upfront would question his record... 4 months 3 purple hearts a silver star.. and I think 2 bronze stars... thats a shitload of awards for a 4 month period.. has to be on par with Audie Murphy... but JK won't allow his records released... I wonder if it would matter to some people if it turned out that he wrote his own awards or lied... all he has to do is release the records to squash questions...jung said:contrast has wartime military experience and is a highly decorated soldier
hostile... yes... unwarrented... depends on if you believed the intel or not.. JK did..jung said:hostile and unwarranted takeover
Thank you for your service... and I am glad to hear that you got out the right way on your terms when you didn't like what was going on... the honorable way..jung said:i am also a veteran and thankfully i chose not to re-up
but he stated that it would be "irresponsible" to vote against it... and didn't offer a "rider" as a reason to vote "no"... that would be the easy ... understandable reason to vote against a bill that looks good up front.. if it has BS "riders" tell the people... let them know that people are taking advantage of the situation to pass things you think are BS on the back of a bill that provides improved resources for the troops... they will understand..Ok, he voted no for a certain bill that provided additional funding.
rhetoric is defined as... The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively. that is pretty much what a debate is all about... using language to persuade others... although I am not the best at it.. nor do I feel that I will change anyones minds here... but how else would some of the people here get half of there posts if it wasn't disagreeing with me.. what fun would it be if everybody agreed...Skitch said:all you have to due is strip the rhetoric
... searching previous post.. ... ... .. Searching post... nope no name calling found... WTF are you talkin about...Skitch said:name-calling
.. what the "Bush = bad.... etc" comment.. well sorry if I don't play up to your high level of intel... that happens to be the way I feel that alot of people view the current Prez and the campaign...Skitch said:over simplification
there wasn't massive amounts of anything in a 6 line post.. well maybe grammatical or punctuation errors... what makes sense to one person doesn't always make sense to another person... you are used alot of words when you could have just said "take out the_____" and insert the word Opinion... because thats what the post was my opinion...Skitch said:massive amounts of logical fallacies
sarcasm doesn't present well in type... so if this wasn't a sarcastic dig at my opinion.. then you should use Dictionary.com and figure out what the words you use mean...Skitch said:epitome of a sound argument
Your Welcome.. ohh and thanx for your $.02.. too...Skitch said:We all feel more informed thanks to you.
"Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous" (i.e. fluff).DanGeo23 said:rhetoric is defined as...
"what a stupid thing to say" - DG23 Admittedly, "name-calling" would be a bit of a stretch. I was a bit on auto-pilot there.DG23 said:... searching previous post.. ... ... .. Searching post... nope no name calling found... WTF are you talkin about...