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RageAgainst

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#1
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bigck3000

The Iron Lung
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I never really bothered to research the time period much....but my mom was born and raised in Chile, they left when she was 16 (1976 I think..) They said before Allende was overthrown...they had to wait in Bread lines for hours and couldnt get alot of things...the day after the coup they said that the army opened warehouses full of food that were being sent off to Russia/Elsewhere. My mom and grandparents have a very high opinion of him (pinochet) and left on good terms. Take it how you want to take it but I never heard anything but good things about Pinochet before a couple of years ago.
 

tzedek

Original Member
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#3
I thought you were speaking of the Fruzzeti :(
 

DanGeo23

Resident Conservative
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abu grahib... some fucking reservists "tortured" prisoners with panties.. and its the administrations fault again... if two workers at McDonalds are closing the store for the night and one decides to force the other one to wear panties... no... one kills the other one.. is the CEO of McDonalds at fault... if somone sodomises someone with a (computer) mouse that says Microsoft on it.. is it Gates' fault... anything to blame the administration...
if the administration was really into torturing dissentors.. well Mikey Moore would be long dead with out finger/toenails and with jumpercables still attached to his nips.... the chick (Mary Mapes) that gladly made the Abu Grahib story worldwide news would be hanging upside down over some vat of pig shit somewhere... the military was handling the situation.... it just was being handled internally... and all the attention only placed the other soldiers that are in that theater in more harm.. it only made the insurgents fight more and harder... it only moved a peaceful Iraq farther away.. it only... ahhh.. helped the left by making the situation over there look worse... that was her whole goal... after all she is the same chick that obtained the fake (Dan Rather) Bush awol memos...
aight... I knew nothing about this guy before I just googled it...
now... the guy Pinochet over threw was Salvador Allende he ran for president 4 times winning the 4th time (1970) with 36% of the popular vote.. the other 3 times he ran were in 1952, 1958, and 1964... now the US had assisted and campaigned against the Socialist every time... fearing that he would buddy up with the Communists... so in 4 elections 4 different US Presidents opposed his coming to power... and if we look at who they were we find that 2 democrats and 2 republicans opposed him.... so I guess the "vast right wing conspiracy" can't be your point here...

the US supported the Conservative canidate that lost the election by just over half a percent.. they didn't support a "right wing dictatorship" the CIA knew of the impending coup.. but that doesn't mean they would assist in it... unless they got thier guy in... and Pinochet wasn't thier guy....

maybe since Pinochet was "right wing" mentioning him was because you were tired of typing "Hitler" every time a conservative or rightwinger has an opinion...
... then again maybe this was your attempt to go (I think the phrase is) "tit for tat" with me... only instead of saying how your guy is better than mine and vice versa... you want to play the "your extremist is worse than my extremist" game... and we just go back and forth comparing atrocities...

May 04, 1970
HuH?... Kent State... ahh... once again.. blaming the "VRWC" for the actions of individuals... the mayor calls the "evil facist republican" head of state to send in troops to quell civil unrest... and a trajedy occurs... but the soldiers aren't responsible for thier actions.. its the evil facist right wing conspiracy ... he sent them there to shoot kids... is that what you were getting at?
 

RageAgainst

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#5
Sadly you try to argue but you lack historical knowledge about Latin America during the cold war. So please, either don't read this (cause its long) and never say any comment on the subject again, because you obviously don't know what you're talking about, or read it and I hope you learn a thing or two.

Pinochet was by FAR more repressive than Castro. Tenths or hundreds of thousand people were killed by the military under the reign of Pinochet. Social inequity was rampant, the country had a poor education system, a poor health system, hell a poor everything except for the elite upper class. If you wonder why there has been so many deaths under his regime, well it's because people were sick of eating shit but everytime they stood up they were shot cold and couldn't organize a revolution.

In Cuba however, the revolution worked. Like other latino fascist dictatorships at the time, Baptista's regime was pure despotism. Among Cubans there was the very rich and very few landowners and the very poor workers. American Mafia and Corporations controlled Havana, sanctionned by Baptista to make huge profits on the back of the people. After the revolution Castro nationalized every private property the US had in the country, redistributed the land equally and kicked out the mafia and all american businessmen. The immediate effects of this was a general increase in the level of life and happyness of the population. the longer term effects include an effective education system and such social advantages. The rich landowners (who used to be very repressive themselves towards the land workers) lost everything and fled to miami. Later they came back to take their power back, trained and equipped by the CIA, but lost for good.

As you can see (or so I hope) the Cuban revolution was actually a good thing AT THE TIME (increased the level of life of the average citizen).

Cuba has the second highest life expectance in latin america at 75, and one of the highest litteracy rate in the world despite the US led embargo that literally kills civilians since the USSR collapsed and couldn't trade with Cuba anymore.

I do agree that the emprisonning of dissidents speaking against castro sucks BUT it's nothing compared to the previous governments. Actually, without the embargo on Cuba, I believe that it would be one of, if not the "best" latino-american country to live in. Because without the embargo, the country can trade, therefore gets richer, therefore the average citizen is richer, social advantages are more efficient (better health care, for exemple) etc, wich leads to less unhappy people, more happy people, thus less dissidents and less repression.

As for Che...Che Guevara was a revolutionnarist fighting for social equities in latin america and has nothing to do with any torture or repression. His goal in life was to overthrow the opression. He died in the Bolivian jungle only a couple years after the Cuban revolution was won and only served a couple years in politics as the minister of industry. He is partly responsible for the agriculture reform that helped many cubans to get out of their shithole.
 
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#6
:eek: The first time I agreed with a conservative (that wasn't John McCain)!
It's true the government had nothing to do with Abu Gharib. It was just those assholes trying to get the blame off of themselves. Seriously comparing Bush to Hitler is retarded. Bush isn't great but he isn't that bad. How do I know? I would be in a "Political Correction Camp" right now or dead, but Bush isn't like Hitler at all.
 

DanGeo23

Resident Conservative
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#7
Sadly you try to argue but you lack historical knowledge
well you are correct on one thing for sure.. I don't know my Latin American cold war history... oohhh I think I prefaced my earlier comments with a statement similar to that... but sadly you type but you don't rebut much of what I said... my comments on Pinhead were straight from Wikipedia....

Pinochet was by FAR more repressive than Castro
. you compare that Pinhead guy with Castro... I didn't do that.. you brought up Pinno in this thread.. I simply commented on it... and my point still stands ... Pinny wasn't the guy the US wanted to be Prez... I in know way said that Pinochet was good for Chile... I in no way said he was better than the Socialist he overthrew... why.. because as you state earlier.. I don't know enough about it...
my last post was a comment on your bringing up Pin and Kent State... and instead of typing about that you focus mainly on painting Cuba as the utopia that the US is oppressing...

In Cuba however, the revolution worked
and in Chile it worked too.. the sitting Prez was overtrown.. which was the goal of their revolution..
Like other latino fascist dictatorships at the time, Baptista's regime was pure despotism
a latino fascist dictatorship was replaced with a latino communist dictatorship... yeah... sounds like a lose lose situation either way....
kicked out the mafia and all american businessmen. The immediate effects of this was a general increase in the level of life and happyness of the population.
and imagine the revenues that will be generated when Castro kicks the bucket and Capitolism lands on the beautiful shores of Cuba.. hotels... tourists... jobs... money... and then the Cuban people can eat more than the government mandate with out fear of going broke...
effective education system and such social advantages.
yeah I keep hearing that.. but .. I still have yet to hear of people from any country that want to go to the Univ of Havana... or is it called CastroU... or people going there for a medical procedure.. matter of fact.. the people that you paint as being sooo happy... face death by drowning, dehydration, starvation.. to come here on makeshift rafts...

fuck... ... the super literate Cubans aren't even allowed to read "Animal Farm"...
US led embargo that literally kills civilians
dammit... if the US government has sanctions/embargos against a country we are evil and killing kids... and if sanctions/embargos don't work to free oppressed people and we go in and help with our military ... well we get blasted for not using sanctions/embargos... we shouldn't trade with despotic regimes... especially ones that stole properties owned by Americans and reappropriated them for the good of Mother Cuba...
BUT it's nothing compared to the previous governments.
BUT it's still not what the Cubans deserve..
.
Che Guevara was a revolutionnarist fighting for social equities in latin america
he sure was a revolutionnarist... but his revolution spawned a different evil... they went from one dictator to another...
and has nothing to do with any torture or repression.
Wikipedia said:
]In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. ... from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials ....(some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, alleges that Guevara took particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of some prisoners.
link
He died in the Bolivian jungle only a couple years after the Cuban revolution was won
executed ... in a school yard... 8 years after... Castro's revolution is not Cubas revolution... the Cubans deserve more...
 

RageAgainst

Chaotic Neutral
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#8
DanGeo23 said:
and imagine the revenues that will be generated when Castro kicks the bucket and Capitolism lands on the beautiful shores of Cuba.. hotels... tourists... jobs... money... and then the Cuban people can eat more than the government mandate with out fear of going broke...
See that's what I mean, you argue yet you don't know shit about Cuba. Cuba's #1 industry is tourism. There's alot of hotels on the beaches of Cuba, I went there 3 years ago with people from school. It was this all included trip with all you can drink and eat and the beautiful beach. We rented a SUV and went to a town (population 100,000), people were poor but everyone smiled at us and kids were running around and laughing. I guess they learned to enjoy life with only the essential objects.

Without tourism Cuba couldn't survive, because of the US embargo; that's about the only thing they can do to make some money. Fucking drop the embargo if you really want Cuba to stand up and do something for itself.

dammit... if the US government has sanctions/embargos against a country we are evil and killing kids... and if sanctions/embargos don't work to free oppressed people and we go in and help with our military ... well we get blasted for not using sanctions/embargos...
You're narrow minded. Why would you sanction them or use the military. It would only punish the Cuban people. Let Castro operate without the embargo and the people will live better.

wikipedia said:
In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. ... from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials ....(some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, alleges that Guevara took particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of some prisoners.
Those were Baptista officials... The allies executed the SS who participated in Hitler's holocaust. Cuban revolutionarists executed those who participated in Baptistas terror regime. It's hard,cold justice.
 

DanGeo23

Resident Conservative
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#9
See that's what I mean, you argue yet you don't know shit about Cuba. Cuba's #1 industry is tourism.
and how much more revenue could be gained if the US lifted is travel ban...
Those were Baptista officials... The allies executed the SS who participated in Hitler's holocaust. Cuban revolutionarists executed those who participated in Baptistas terror regime. It's hard,cold justice
the Baptistas weren't given trials were they... not saying they were innocent... but they were executed without any due process.. so of course all those executed were labeled as Baptistas...
and the oppressed Cubans should execute Castro
 

MaxPower

You're my number two
Staff
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#10
DanGeo23 said:
so of course all those executed were labeled as Baptistas...
and the oppressed Cubans should execute Castro
Or Castr-o-ate him.