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Headlines FBI Retires it's Carnivore System

Descent

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FBI retires its Carnivore

By Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus Jan 14 2005 7:16PM
FBI surveillance experts have put their once-controversial Carnivore Internet surveillance tool out to pasture, preferring instead to use commercial products to eavesdrop on network traffic, according to documents released Friday.

Two reports to Congress obtained by the Washington-based Electronic Privacy Information Center under the Freedom of Information Act reveal that the FBI didn't use Carnivore, or its rebranded version "DCS-1000," at all during the 2002 and 2003 fiscal years. Instead, the bureau turned to unnamed commercially-available products to conduct Internet surveillance thirteen times in criminal investigations in that period.

Carnivore became a hot topic among civil liberations, some network operators and many lawmakers in 2000, when an ISP's legal challenge brought the surveillance tool's existence to light. One controversy revolved around the FBI's legally-murky use of the device to obtain e-mail headers and other information without a wiretap warrant -- an issue Congress resolved by explicitly legalizing the practice in the 2001 USA PATRIOT Act.

Under section 216 of the act, the FBI can conduct a limited form of Internet surveillance without first visiting a judge and establishing probable cause that the target has committed a crime. In such cases the FBI is authorized to capture routing information like e-mail addresses or IP addresses, but not the contents of the communications.

According to the released reports, the bureau used that power three times in 2002 and six times in 2003 in cases in which it brought its own Internet surveillance gear to the job. Each of those surveillance operations lasted sixty days or less, except for one investigation into alleged extortion, arson and "teaching of others how to make and use destructive devices" that ran over eight months from January 10th to August 26th, 2002.

Other cases investigated under section 216 involved alleged mail fraud, controlled substance sales, providing material support to terrorism, and making obscene or harassing telephone calls within the District of Columbia. The surveillance targets' names are not listed in the reports.

In four additional cases, twice each in 2002 and 2003, the FBI obtained a full-blown Internet wiretap warrant from a judge, permitting them to capture the contents of a target's Internet communications in real time. No more information on those cases is provided in the reports because they involved "sensitive investigations," according to the bureau.

The new documents only enumerate criminal investigations in which the FBI deployed a government-owned surveillance tool, not those in which an ISP used its own equipment to facilitate the spying. Cases involving foreign espionage or international terrorism are also omitted.

Developed by a contractor, Carnivore was a customizable packet sniffer that, in conjunction with other FBI tools, could capture e-mail messages, and reconstruct Web pages exactly as a surveillance target saw them while surfing the Web. FBI agents lugged it with them to ISPs that lacked their own spying capability.
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I think it's about time that the "FBI Net Nazis" stopped using that crap. I first heard about it from MaxPower over the summer, and the sheer thought of it creeped me out.

If you do some research on the Web, one of the USA's biggest and most ambitious ideas is to control the flow of data over the Internet, but not in terms of censoring. They want to push for global hacking laws, and the starndardization of punishments for piracy, among other things.

What the USA still doesn't grasp is that The Internet has no nationality; it has no laws, and no government. It is like it's own nation, independantly ruled by geeks all over the world. We don't want anyone treading on our nation, so please, to all countries: KEEP YOUR LAWS OUT OF THE INTERNET.

We don't want you all here, and with good reason. Politics and technology don't mix in America. Just look at Diebold, or senator Grossman's and Lieberman's campaigns against video game violence.

To Diebold: Thanks for fixing the election. You are a true model for Democracy everywehere.

To the "game haters:" Try not to forget the First Amendment, and also try reading up on these so-called "media effects." They are non-existant. If you are looking for someone to blame for Columbine, blame yourselves for not giving Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris the psychological treatment they needed, because your medical system sucks donkeys. Just don't blame an entire populace, or an entire industry. Didn't you see where scapegoating got Germany in World War II?
 

_Kitana_

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Descent said:
_____________________________________________
I think it's about time that the "FBI Net Nazis" stopped using that crap. I first heard about it from MaxPower over the summer, and the sheer thought of it creeped me out.

If you do some research on the Web, one of the USA's biggest and most ambitious ideas is to control the flow of data over the Internet, but not in terms of censoring. They want to push for global hacking laws, and the starndardization of punishments for piracy, among other things.

What the USA still doesn't grasp is that The Internet has no nationality; it has no laws, and no government. It is like it's own nation, independantly ruled by geeks all over the world. We don't want anyone treading on our nation, so please, to all countries: KEEP YOUR LAWS OUT OF THE INTERNET.

We don't want you all here, and with good reason. Politics and technology don't mix in America. Just look at Diebold, or senator Grossman's and Lieberman's campaigns against video game violence.

To Diebold: Thanks for fixing the election. You are a true model for Democracy everywehere.

To the "game haters:" Try not to forget the First Amendment, and also try reading up on these so-called "media effects." They are non-existant. If you are looking for someone to blame for Columbine, blame yourselves for not giving Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris the psychological treatment they needed, because your medical system sucks donkeys. Just don't blame an entire populace, or an entire industry. Didn't you see where scapegoating got Germany in World War II?

Keep your laws off the internet. Hmmm. So someone posting a child porno site up is alright. No laws no Rules. I mean you can't just have something as POWERFUL as this and say alright no rules.

Its like everything it can be used for good or bad. Terrorist can use it to link messages and info acrossed it. I mean... Eh?

yes the majority of us don't do this shit, but enough do where I want someone watching out and seeing whats all going down on it.
 

Descent

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Hell no! Child porn should be ILLEGAL, and everyone on this forum can agree with me on that. I feel that anti-piracy laws and such are not a good thing, because they infringe on geek culture.

Let me put it this way: If the content on the site is an immediate threat to humans, such as child porn or death threats, then make it illegal. However, if it really doesn't endanger anyone, then don't bother making laws about it, because it is worthless.
 

_Kitana_

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Descent said:
Hell no! Child porn should be ILLEGAL, and everyone on this forum can agree with me on that. I feel that anti-piracy laws and such are not a good thing, because they infringe on geek culture.

Let me put it this way: If the content on the site is an immediate threat to humans, such as child porn or death threats, then make it illegal. However, if it really doesn't endanger anyone, then don't bother making laws about it, because it is worthless.

So you write a story online or create a picture. People are raving about it. Suddenly someone wants to pay money to have this picture printed us. Well they are unsure who wrote this or painted it. Suddenly a geek host up on his site it as his orginal work. Gets the credit money for it which is quite large.

He just stole someone else creativity and hard work. He didn't endanger anyone, but he did steal and that person lost greatly. Now from what you are saying there should be nothing that can be done about it because, it is not endangering anyone?
 

Jung

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_Kitana_ said:
So you write a story online or create a picture. People are raving about it. Suddenly someone wants to pay money to have this picture printed us. Well they are unsure who wrote this or painted it. Suddenly a geek host up on his site it as his orginal work. Gets the credit money for it which is quite large.

He just stole someone else creativity and hard work. He didn't endanger anyone, but he did steal and that person lost greatly. Now from what you are saying there should be nothing that can be done about it because, it is not endangering anyone?
Ok, I'll rep Descent for this, because you're clearly unaware of these things. That already happens on the internet, just look at www.ebaumsworld.com for instance. There are already rules stating that as long as you can prove a date of creation, your work is automatically protected. Tell that to the ebaums world's and Kazaa's of the internet though.

I agree that IP should be protected anywhere within the U.S's bounds, but the internet is a bit different. You have to realize that we only have power to govern a very small part of it.

Of course, I have no clue how or why you're trying to connect privacy issues with IP and copyrights. People like you would have the internet turn into a police state. :(

Edit: Sorry Descent, I can't rep you.
 

rcarhar

There goes a clever gent
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junglizm said:
People like you would have the internet turn into a police state. :(
Gross !!

The only thing you really can (and should) govern is possesion. So those who host a child porn website, etc. go down. Everone steals though... New anti-piracy methods will emerge; coders will get past them. :thumbsup:
 

Fire_ze_Missles

Martha Fuckin' Stewart
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Descent said:
I feel that anti-piracy laws and such are not a good thing, because they infringe on geek culture.

Anti-piracy laws infringe on geek culture? How?
 

MaxPower

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Carnivore has been around for over a decade. It goes deeper than you think. I shouldn't even be talking about this.

Also look into the FBI's "magic lantern" and even more intrusive is "Echelon" This captuers All forms of world wide communications, not just "interweb".

And trust me They are soooo not concerned with protecting some story or picture posted on your site.



http://www.echelonwatch.org/
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html
http://world-information.org/wio/infostructure/100437611746/100438658866?opmode=contents


Hold on.....they're trying to break down my door.

Now where did I put those rounds of double-odd buck?
 

gurlgonewild

Was machen Sie?
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MaxPower said:
Also look into the FBI's "magic lantern" and even more intrusive is "Echelon"
yup, yup true.

btw-
i see you guys were released from the farm ~welkies~(descent and rc)
 

_Kitana_

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junglizm said:
Ok, I'll rep Descent for this, because you're clearly unaware of these things. That already happens on the internet, just look at www.ebaumsworld.com for instance. There are already rules stating that as long as you can prove a date of creation, your work is automatically protected. Tell that to the ebaums world's and Kazaa's of the internet though.

I agree that IP should be protected anywhere within the U.S's bounds, but the internet is a bit different. You have to realize that we only have power to govern a very small part of it.

Of course, I have no clue how or why you're trying to connect privacy issues with IP and copyrights. People like you would have the internet turn into a police state. :(

Edit: Sorry Descent, I can't rep you.
thats just it there are RULES.... he doesn't want any RULES.....

it clear that you don't know how to read and understand what you are reading. I know there are rules like this already in place. My stand was he said no law or order on the internet? Thats what I am debating... now come on stay on the same page.

The bottom line is this. We need someone watching what we are doing on the internet and it needs to have a forum of rules applied to it. To keep not only you safe, but the stuff you worked hard on and your money.

Yes I am for a policed internet... to some extent.
 

_Kitana_

Angel of Death
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MaxPower said:
Carnivore has been around for over a decade. It goes deeper than you think. I shouldn't even be talking about this.

Also look into the FBI's "magic lantern" and even more intrusive is "Echelon" This captuers All forms of world wide communications, not just "interweb".

And trust me They are soooo not concerned with protecting some story or picture posted on your site.



http://www.echelonwatch.org/
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html
http://world-information.org/wio/infostructure/100437611746/100438658866?opmode=contents



Hold on.....they're trying to break down my door.

Now where did I put those rounds of double-odd buck?
its like this, if your not doing anything wrong. WHO CARES?

its pretty clear if they were after just people downloading music then the whole net would be shut down and all of us would be in jail. THERE NOT....

I am sure they give a rats ass about what I am typing on my computer cause *GAPS* i am not really doing anything wrong.

:rolleyes:
 

BrIONwoshMunky

EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!
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_Kitana_ said:
its like this, if your not doing anything wrong. WHO CARES?

its pretty clear if they were after just people downloading music then the whole net would be shut down and all of us would be in jail. THERE NOT....

I am sure they give a rats ass about what I am typing on my computer cause *GAPS* i am not really doing anything wrong.

:rolleyes:

NICE... if you don't use your rights... why have them right... if you can't talk who needs freedom of speech? :thumbsdn:

That's why the country is dying... apathy.

Like Micheal Douglas says on those kiddie AIDS awarness PSM's "Apathy is lethal" to kids with AIDS and governments supposedly run by it's citizens.
 

MaxPower

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_Kitana_ said:
its like this, if your not doing anything wrong. WHO CARES?

its pretty clear if they were after just people downloading music then the whole net would be shut down and all of us would be in jail. THERE NOT....

I am sure they give a rats ass about what I am typing on my computer cause *GAPS* i am not really doing anything wrong.

:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
First off I would have thought you’d have pegged that over dramatic shit as goofing. So no need to pick a fight.
As I already said. If you'll re-read what I wrote. They could not care less about your rights to your work such as, stories you've written or any other form of art work.

The carnivore, ML, and Echelon systems are in place for one reason only.
As far as who cares? Not necessarily me, as long as it continues to be used the way it is. (read up on the technology, because it's too involved for me to get into here.)
Basically Echelon supercomputers listen for keywords. They use algorithms to determine the context in which these keywords are being used. When they hit some predetermined level of positive criteria, the automated system flags the recorded communication for human viewing/listening. It's much more involved than that, but that's the nutshell.

It's the potential of these systems can be unsettling. Nobody likes to think that someone can listen covertly to any phone call they make, even if "They're not doing anything wrong".
What I am posting now is public record, but phone calls and private emails are things I prefer to choose the audience. I will choose to be the one to make that choice, for as long as I am an American citizen.

So before you go getting defensive and "We have to protect ourselves" on me; let me remind you that we still have the right to private communication. (so far)
 

Jung

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_Kitana_ said:
thats just it there are RULES.... he doesn't want any RULES.....

it clear that you don't know how to read and understand what you are reading. I know there are rules like this already in place. My stand was he said no law or order on the internet? Thats what I am debating... now come on stay on the same page.
It clear that you be haf eliterates.

The fact that you needed to bring copyright issues into a post about privacy only proves your lack of understanding. I wasn't replying to his, nor your claims that the internet should be lawless. Do you get it now, princess?

Carnivore wasn't about protecting IP or keeping child porn off the net. The U.S. Government can't "police" the internet, it's has no bounds, it's a nationless entity. All any government can do is make laws governing content hosted inside their country. I understadn that, and I wasn't disputing it. You should take your own advice about comprehension.
The bottom line is this. We need someone watching what we are doing on the internet and it needs to have a forum of rules applied to it. To keep not only you safe, but the stuff you worked hard on and your money.
So what would these "watchers" watch for? At what point does privacy give way to suspicion? Is it ok to throw a person's right to privacy out the window, just because they're suspected of some e-crime? I'm not talking about monitoring one person's email either, this is broad based data collection and profiling.

There are reasons for copyright laws, the riaa, mpaa etc. There is no need for some internet police unit. One of the best things about the internet is anonymity, I seriously doubt that you can 'police' the internet with out throwing that out the window.
its like this, if your not doing anything wrong. WHO CARES?
:rolleyes: Yeah dude, that's why the patriot act is so fucking cool. What kind of fucking nazi are you? Lets throw everyone's rights out the window equally, that's fair, right? I mean, only a criminal should be worried, right? I seriously don't expect you to get that though, so I'll leave it at that...

But I digress, I made that post before Jason posted the announcement. It's clear that we aren't supposed to use this forum for chit chat, I was only replying to rep Descent. So why don't you post in the computer forum if you wish to continue this conversation.
 

_Kitana_

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lol, i don't think i am to bothered by people hearing what i am saying over the phone...

Things like that really don't bother me...


Its good they have these tools and i am sure what they are looking for in those key words and phrases, doesn't even affect 98% of the users on the internet.

This is people getting freaked out and scared for no reason. Not picking a fight with you max, just don't agree or really don't give a damn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, no one can really police the internet. What i was talking about was him saying it didn't need even the laws it does have. Which it DOES.

NO?

then it got off unto this; you don't know what you are talking about blah blah blah blah.

Personally nothing like this really concerns nor bothers me.

so feel free to debate this, cause im pretty much done with this.
 

voiceofreason

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_Kitana_ said:
just don't agree or really don't give a damn.

Personally nothing like this really concerns nor bothers me.
It's apathetic thinking like yours that could turn this country into a Police State.

It's a good thing you don't have any say in the matter.
 

Descent

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Kitana said:
Its good they have these tools and i am sure what they are looking for in those key words and phrases, doesn't even affect 98% of the users on the internet.
That would mean that 2 out of every 100 people would be in trouble, or 20 out of every 1000. Yet again, you show your enormous stupidity about The Internet. I don't hate you, I just feel that you should have more insight. It's more like every one out of five million people, and I am being generous at that. If you factor in that there are ten million people in NYC, and that very few have been arrested, the factors are now about...I'd say one in every 20 million.

Please, get off The Internet if you want it to be censored. It doesn't help anything; that's exactly why the UK blocked access to child porn sites, instead of going after the individuals. Guess what? They are still running free, destroying people's psychology to the point where some people can never have sex again due to the memories.

Also, I think it's about time that I brought up the issue of pedophiles versus child molestors. Pedophiles want to have meaningful relationships with kids, while child molestors actually rape the kids, and sometimes take pictures. The American media likes to blur the line to the point where you can't see it, and some some pretty decent people are going to jail for nothing but love (Kids love pedophiles, by the way, because they relate to them in every way humanly possible).