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Headlines Immigrant health care

Demosthenes

Looking for truth
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http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...ce/stories/072605dnmethealthcare.d22e9b2.html

[A new national study suggests that immigrants in the United States receive about half as much medical care as their American counterparts...
The study concluded that the spending disparity refuted the notion that immigrants were "a substantial burden" on the U.S. health-care system...
"You can explain this disparity as a lack of access due to language, financial and insurance barriers," said Dr. Ron Anderson, president and chief executive officer of Parkland Memorial Hospital, which services a large immigrant population.
"There's nothing to celebrate in this study," he said...
The study estimated that 25 percent of U.S. immigrants lack public or private health insurance. However, immigrants were broadly defined as anyone born outside the U.S., including people who had moved to this country decades ago.
"It included people from Scandinavia who've been here 20 years and are citizens now," Dr. Buhner said. "There would probably be even a greater disparity in health-care spending if it had looked at just undocumented workers. Their barriers to care are associated with being poor and uninsured..."
Dr. Anderson noted that the longer immigrants resided in the United States, the more likely they were to become insured...
The authors of the study also theorized that immigrants receive a smaller proportion of health care than they pay for.]- excerpts by Sherry Jacobson

Is anyone else as conflicted as I am about this?
On the one hand, my fellow human beings are in need. "Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free". Being compassionate, I wish to help them.
However, even Jesus said "there will always be the poor." And if immigrant healthcare did improve, if more relied on it, then it certainly would burden it. So is this survival of the fittest, politcal natural selection?
Or is this outright prejudism? Either way you might believe, does anyone think something should be done about it?
 

Woodreaux

Original Dicksman
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Shit, I'm a US citizen and a veteran, and I haven't been able to afford medical care in years. If they get half of the care as me, 0 / 2 = 0... they get none.
 

DanGeo23

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The study concluded that the spending disparity refuted the notion that immigrants were "a substantial burden" on the U.S. health-care system...
Immigrants aren't the problem... illegal immigrants are the problem... they can go to an ER and receive medical attention without paying for it... that is a burden on the hospital... which inturn makes them raise their prices... which makes the insurance companies paymore.. so they raise the cost of coverage... so those of us with insurance pay more...


People have a right to health care, immigrants or not.
health care isn't a right... next thing you know people will be saying that having a car and a house is a right... then it will be an unalienable right to have air conditioning in your house..

I feel that this country should give its veterans health insurance before it gives it to illegal immigrants... and those that choose not to work to try to attain it for themselves..
 
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#5
DanGeo23 said:
Immigrants aren't the problem... illegal immigrants are the problem... they can go to an ER and receive medical attention without paying for it... that is a burden on the hospital... which inturn makes them raise their prices... which makes the insurance companies paymore.. so they raise the cost of coverage... so those of us with insurance pay more...
That's why you need FREE health care.
DanGeo23 said:
health care isn't a right... next thing you know people will be saying that having a car and a house is a right... then it will be an unalienable right to have air conditioning in your house..
Health care is a right, you have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Without health care you can die, be in pain (which reduces happiness), and be stuck at home, without the liberty to go about your business. And yes, I believe shelter should be a right, don't tell me you enjoy the suffering of homeless people?
DanGeo23 said:
I feel that this country should give its veterans health insurance before it gives it to illegal immigrants... and those that choose not to work to try to attain it for themselves..
Of course veterans should be cared for, but illegal immigrants are in a bad situation, they are usually just trying to feed their families without resorting to crime. Surely, right-wingers such as yourself would be pleased to see such enterprise among the poor, they are trying to better their lives, and the lives of their families through hard work. Without government assistence! :thumbsup:
 

Janglenut

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canadian_pov said:
That's why you need FREE health care.
That's right, give low lifes something else to abuse. We'll be paying for more druggies to O.D. than to help the poor.
 
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#7
Janglenut said:
That's right, give low lifes something else to abuse. We'll be paying for more druggies to O.D. than to help the poor.
This is the dumbest post I've seen today. Do you know anything about socialized medical systems? As a Canadian, I know our system isn't perfect, but to Canadians, it's a source of pride and a source of scorn for America. If you are sick, you have the right to get better, instead of die. Imagine a single mom somewhere in America. She works her ass off, gets paid minimum wage, and can't afford insurance. When she get sick, she can't work to support her child. So the kid turns to crime to support the two of them. He gets arrested, she gets deppressed and commits suicide. Now, replay this situation with free health care. The single mom gets treatment, can return to work, and the kid doesn't get arrested. A dramatization sure, but plausible nonetheless. Health care is a right, no questions asked.
 

Jung

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canadian_pov said:
People have a right to health care, immigrants or not.
Immigrants are US citizens just like anyone else, they should be eligible for any and all benefits that citizens normally are. However, illegal immigrants should get nothing. Call me apathetic, but our citizens should come before political correctness.
canadian_pov said:
As a Canadian, I know our system isn't perfect, but to Canadians, it's a source of pride and a source of scorn for America.
So you get marginal health care, but only after waiting in lines and going through bureaucratic bullshit.

I'm fine with the status quo of our current system. Free health care is already available for those in need, and those who can afford better care do.
Imagine a single mom somewhere in America. She works her ass off, gets paid minimum wage, and can't afford insurance. When she get sick, she can't work to support her child. So the kid turns to crime to support the two of them. He gets arrested, she gets deppressed and commits suicide. Now, replay this situation with free health care. The single mom gets treatment, can return to work, and the kid doesn't get arrested. A dramatization sure, but plausible nonetheless. Health care is a right, no questions asked.
America already has free clinics, welfare and free health care, so your point is moot. Sure the system could be improved (at tax payer's expense), but it does the job for now. Maybe if we get a decent idiot king in office, we'll see a significant improvement. Don't hold your breath for anything drastic for at least another three years though.
 
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#9
junglizm said:
Immigrants are US citizens just like anyone else, they should be eligible for any and all benefits that citizens normally are. However, illegal immigrants should get nothing. Call me apathetic, but our citizens should come before political correctness.
Illegal immigrants are people too. They work damn hard and, in my opinion, should be treated as such.
junglizm said:
So you get marginal health care, but only after waiting in lines and going through bureaucratic bullshit.
I have been in hospital twice, once after being hit in the face with a hockey stick, and once after stepping on a large rusty spike. Both times I found the care good, timely, and FREE.

My 3 points are...
...if you can get something better, why not do it?
...public health care is better than private.
...illegal immigrants are human beings every bit as much as you or me.
 

Jung

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canadian_pov said:
Illegal immigrants are people too. They work damn hard and, in my opinion, should be treated as such.
But then you have legal citizens paying for those who came over to take advantage of that fact. I'm sorry, but American health care should be for Americans. Otherwise, half the world would be sneaking into our country to get free health care. Then what? You tax hard working citizens so someone that's been in our country all of 3 days can get free treatment?

If you want the benefits of being an American citizen, then you become one. You don't come to our country, hide from immigration and then expect to get shit for free. I'm sorry.

If the person is in the process, then I have no problem with them receiving care, but not all illegals should be privy to our privileges. This may sound crass, but "free health care for the entire world, just stop on by" isn't in our constitution, therefore not a "right."
if you can get something better, why not do it?
Who said I didn't? My job provides my family with health care. I have no need for free or public care.
public health care is better than private.
More like "public health care is better than no health care."

I'd much rather pay or co-pay for quality care. Those who can't can already receive good free health care.
illegal immigrants are human beings every bit as much as you or me.
I agree, and I'm all for their rights. However, receiving free health care in a foreign country, in which they're not citizens of isn't a "right" that they have.
 

voiceofreason

Seeker of Truth
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I don't understand the point of the article, if immigrants were broadly defined as anyone born outside the U.S., including people who had moved to this country decades ago, then aren't most American's immigrants?

No Healthcare is Not a right. It's a benefit.

Vets should get healthcare.
 
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#12
It's a matter of opinion, you people say health care isn't a right, but a benefit. I disagree, none of us are going to change our minds, so, unless this is moved to B&T, there isn't much more to say before this thread degenerates into an "I'm right" "No, I'm right" type of argument.

EDIT: I'm not saying people should just go to America in order to get free health care, but illegal immigrants who work damn hard for close to fuck all, thereby contributing to the economy by doing jobs that American citizens don't want to, owing to their dangerous/disgusting nature, should get health care.
 
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#13
I think as long as one gives, one can expect to be given back to. Call me cold, but if an immigrant will not join the rest of US society and pay their dues, then they haven't earned healthcare.

As for canadian_pov, I have only one thing to say:
Competition is a necessity for progression.
 
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#14
Aliensavant said:
I think as long as one gives, one can expect to be given back to. Call me cold, but if an immigrant will not join the rest of US society and pay their dues, then they haven't earned healthcare.
Illegal immigrants do "pay their dues", they DO contribute to society, so your point is actually should be that illegals should get health care...
Aliensavant said:
As for canadian_pov, I have only one thing to say:
Competition is a necessity for progression.
No, it is not. You are wrong. Many things are not invented for profit, Mozilla Firefox for example. Also, why do you seem to think that rich people's lives are worth more than the lives of poor poeple? Just because your father wasn't the founder of a Fortune 500 company, doesn't mean you should have to forego treatment.
 

Jung

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canadian_pov said:
It's a matter of opinion, you people say health care isn't a right, but a benefit.
Actually, being that we have a constitution that defines our rights, "free health care for everyone" isn't a right in our country. That's not to take away from your opinion though, but understand that America has never offered that as a "right."


I'm not saying people should just go to America in order to get free health care
But if you support tax funded health care for them, you are supporting that. You don't have to announce it to the world, word will get around. Then illegals will come over, receive care, then go back to their countries. It's absurd to expect hard working Americans, who have families and health care needs themselves, to fund that.
but illegal immigrants who work damn hard for close to fuck all, thereby contributing to the economy by doing jobs that American citizens don't want to, owing to their dangerous/disgusting nature, should get health care.
First off, these illegals are breaking our laws by entering illegally, they continue to break laws by hiding from immigration, and break even more by working illegally in our country. Now you want to reward them for it? OK...

Secondly, I seriously fail to see how illegals contribute to our economy in any significant way. Sure they do some pretty crappy jobs, but Joe-just-lost-his-job Johnson would be happy as hell to do those jobs too. Not to mention that they're taking those jobs away from American citizens who might need them, because they work for next to nothing.

Illegals who come over and never become citizens are just exploiting our system. I have no problem supporting illegals who make an effort to become citizens, but I don't feel inclined, nor obligated, to support those who just want the free crap. Life is hard, unfair and often unfortunate. I feel no sympathy for those who just want to live off the system, be they American or an illegal immigrant.

If you want the privileges, you step up and do what it takes to deserve them, not act like it's your birth right to have you medical expenses paid by an entire country.

Aliensavant said:
As for canadian_pov, I have only one thing to say:
Competition is a necessity for progression.
Amen to that. Without competition, the health care industry would stagnate, and be of no good to anyone.
 
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junglizm said:
Actually, being that we have a constitution that defines our rights, "free health care for everyone" isn't a right in our country. That's not to take away from your opinion though, but understand that America has never offered that as a "right."
Point taken, but it should be one, in my opinion.

junglizm said:
But if you support tax funded health care for them, you are supporting that. You don't have to announce it to the world, word will get around. Then illegals will come over, receive care, then go back to their countries. It's absurd to expect hard working Americans, who have families and health care needs themselves, to fund that.
I am only suggesting that illegal RESIDENTS of America get free health care.

junglizm said:
First off, these illegals are breaking our laws by entering illegally, they continue to break laws by hiding from immigration, and break even more by working illegally in our country. Now you want to reward them for it? OK...
Point taken, but maybe if first-world interests were not, as we speak, crushing the economies of the third world, they wouldn't have to come to America.

junglizm said:
Secondly, I seriously fail to see how illegals contribute to our economy in any significant way. Sure they do some pretty crappy jobs, but Joe-just-lost-his-job Johnson would be happy as hell to do those jobs too. Not to mention that they're taking those jobs away from American citizens who might need them, because they work for next to nothing.
This is why capitalism no longer works, because at the moment, with the degree to which things are automated, there isn't enough work to go around. But that's another thread...

junglizm said:
Illegals who come over and never become citizens are just exploiting our system. I have no problem supporting illegals who make an effort to become citizens, but I don't feel inclined, nor obligated, to support those who just want the free crap. Life is hard, unfair and often unfortunate. I feel no sympathy for those who just want to live off the system, be they American or an illegal immigrant.
Illegals do not "just live off the system," as I have said before, they work hard, and are generally too scared of deportation to even apply for social assistence.

junglizm said:
Amen to that. Without competition, the health care industry would stagnate, and be of no good to anyone.
No, you are a fool. This is a very persistant argument, but it is based on the worst in people, greed. In the case of health care, I don't think greed should be involved. It is not in the interests of the drug industry to have a nation of healthy people, becuase then they would have a smaller market. Wheras if the government ran the pharmaceutical industry, it would be in their interests to have healthy people, and the reasons for that should be obvious. That's just one example.

Another point to add to the previous 3: Stuff that the government could run better than private interests, should be run by the government. Stuff that private interests can run better than the government, should be run by private interests.
 

PatticusRex

Powdered Toast Man
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canadian_pov said:
No, you are a fool.
Eh...Wrong answer...Calling Jung a fool while wanting this out of B&T isn't cool.

On a more important note.
I understand Jung's and other's arguements about illegal immigrants availability to decent medicare. Those that are trying to become American citizens should be getting healthcare once they get citizenship. Those who wish to live without being an American citizen do not deserve American healthcare. Get citizenship, contribute to society as an American citizen and get your healthcare. Quit living under the radar and exploiting a system made for citizens of America.

canadian_pov said:
In the case of health care, I don't think greed should be involved. It is not in the interests of the drug industry to have a nation of healthy people, becuase then they would have a smaller market. Wheras if the government ran the pharmaceutical industry, it would be in their interests to have healthy people, and the reasons for that should be obvious.
Greed is involved in everything in society. For example: If two insurance companies are around, they will offer packages to better your coverage to attract customers and their money. Coverage increased and everyone gets a chubby because they are covered for injuries. (I am not sure if this works like that...if you have private hospital companies and such....if it doesn't, ignore me, or use it as another example)
If you have private hospital companies with people that pay for their healthcare, you have competition to attract your customers to your healthcare rather than the other company. Competition would ensue to offer better care to those that are ill. You have a slow but steady climb in better treatments and equipment to keep up with the competitior.
 

Jung

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canadian_pov said:
Point taken, but it should be one, in my opinion.
That's noble, and you should take heart in the fact that you're Canadian.
I am only suggesting that illegal RESIDENTS of America get free health care.
What defines an "illegal resident?" Do they have to stay 24 hours? A week? Month? 6? Where is the line?

Furthermore, illegal resident are still illegal aliens.
Point taken, but maybe if first-world interests were not, as we speak, crushing the economies of the third world, they wouldn't have to come to America.
Yeah, I agree with you on that one, America has become quite the global bully in recent years. Actually, who am I kidding, we've been bullying the rest of the world for the past 50 years or so...
This is why capitalism no longer works, because at the moment, with the degree to which things are automated, there isn't enough work to go around.
Exactly. There isn't even enough work for Americans, which is why I don't think we should show favor to illegals. It just makes things worse. Like Dan said earlier, you give an inch, they take a mile, ad nauseam.
Illegals do not "just live off the system," as I have said before, they work hard, and are generally too scared of deportation to even apply for social assistence.
You seem to have missed my point.

Working an under the table job isn't contributing to our country. It's illegal and possibly detrimental to our citizens. So don’t give me that bullshit guilt trip about their illegal labor somehow qualifying them for tax funded benefits. If you want tax funded benefits, you pay taxes. It's pretty fucking simple; you either contribute or get nothing in return. If you don't, then you shut up and accept your choices.

Many illegals come here and seek out the process of becoming citizen. That I can respect. Hell, it’s not hard; a simple arranged marriage would do it if they were scared of naturalization. Fear and ignorance is no excuse to stay in our country illegally and expect free rewards for breaking our laws and taking our jobs.

canadian_pov said:
No, you are a fool.
:rolleyes:

This is a very persistant argument, but it is based on the worst in people, greed.
How does it have anything to do with greed? We already provide free health care to our citizens... Competition only ensures that those who pay will get competative coverage. It's a good thing for the majority of Americans, being that they pay for their care. And we're already funding care for those who can't afford it.

It is not in the interests of the drug industry to have a nation of healthy people, becuase then they would have a smaller market.
Yet our health care industry is a multi-billion dollar a year industry, and millions, if not billions of people are treated and recover each yet. Yeah, I'd say those companies are doing a pretty good job of keeping American public sickly.

Granted, I know medicine is expensive. But so is everything these days; it's called inflation and depression.
Wheras if the government ran the pharmaceutical industry, it would be in their interests to have healthy people, and the reasons for that should be obvious. That's just one example.
DO you honestly think that our country would maintain a pristine and loving state of affairs? Have you paid attention to the news lately? Read anything about our welfare system? Social security? Veterans benefits?

Please. Spare me the rhetoric. That's a plausible idea if I've ever heard one.
Another point to add to the previous 3: Stuff that the government could run better than private interests, should be run by the government. Stuff that private interests can run better than the government, should be run by private interests.
Not to nitpick, but you're going to have to be more specific than "stuff." I'm not trying to be an ass, but seriously, what was the point of such a vague statement?
 
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junglizm said:
That's noble, and you should take heart in the fact that you're Canadian.
I do, each and every day.

junglizm said:
What defines an "illegal resident?" Do they have to stay 24 hours? A week? Month? 6? Where is the line?
Furthermore, illegal resident are still illegal aliens.
True, but they live and work in your country, and should be treated with the dignity and respect afforded every other American.

junglizm said:
Exactly. There isn't even enough work for Americans, which is why I don't think we should show favor to illegals. It just makes things worse. Like Dan said earlier, you give an inch, they take a mile, ad nauseam.
True, but what I hate is people who just despise illegals for no apparent reason. There are very good arguments made against illegals, but some people seem to hold them accountable for all America's problems. I will let you off the hook because you use well-reasoned arguments, instead of just the bullshit I hear from most people arguing your position.

junglizm said:
Working an under the table job isn't contributing to our country. It's illegal and possibly detrimental to our citizens. So don’t give me that bullshit guilt trip about their illegal labor somehow qualifying them for tax funded benefits. If you want tax funded benefits, you pay taxes. It's pretty fucking simple; you either contribute or get nothing in return. If you don't, then you shut up and accept your choices.
I agree with you there, people should pay taxes, instead of hiding their money in offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. But on the topic, they should declare an amnesty. Get all the illegals citizenship and make 'em pay for it.

junglizm said:
Watch it...
Sorry about that, I just really don't like private health care.

junglizm said:
Yet our health care industry is a multi-billion dollar a year industry, and millions, if not billions of people are treated and recover each yet. Yeah, I'd say those companies are doing a pretty good job of keeping American public sickly.
Allergies are up, depression and suicide are up, the pharmaceutical companies have drugs for these, but they don't seem to be working. (and yes I know there are other factors).

junglizm said:
DO you honestly think that our country would maintain a pristine and loving state of affairs? Have you paid attention to the news lately? Read anything about our welfare system? Social security? Veterans benefits?
Please. Spare me the rhetoric. That's a plausible idea if I've ever heard one.
Ok, I admit, your government is doing a pretty shitty job on that front, but the government is supposed to rule with the interests of the people at heart. The Bush administration has not done that, but it is their job.

junglizm said:
Not to nitpick, but you're going to have to be more specific than "stuff." I'm not trying to be an ass, but seriously, what was the point of such a vague statement?
Let's say, the restaurant business, is much better run by private interests, while health care is, IMO, better run by the government.
 

countrygrl

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canadian_pov said:
True, but they live and work in your country, and should be treated with the dignity and respect afforded every other American.
What part of illegal don't you understand? They don't pay taxes...why should they reap the benefits of taxpayers?


canadian_pov said:
True, but what I hate is people who just despise illegals for no apparent reason. There are very good arguments made against illegals, but some people seem to hold them accountable for all America's problems. I will let you off the hook because you use well-reasoned arguments, instead of just the bullshit I hear from most people arguing your position.
once again there is that word illegal.

canadian_pov said:
I agree with you there, people should pay taxes, instead of hiding their money in offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. But on the topic, they should declare an amnesty. Get all the illegals citizenship and make 'em pay for it.
How about sending them back to their home country and making them jump through the same hoops that people who come into the country legally go through. Just because they got past the borders you want to give them immunity?



canadian_pov said:
Let's say, the restaurant business, is much better run by private interests, while health care is, IMO, better run by the government.

Yeah right, the government can't even balance the budget...let private healthcare try getting by on that.