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Headlines Iraqis Miss Third Constitution Deadline

voiceofreason

Seeker of Truth
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BAGHDAD, Iraq - The speaker of Iraq's parliament announced a one-day extension early Friday in talks on the new constitution — a fourth attempt to win Sunni Arab approval. But he said that if no agreement is reached, the document would bypass parliament and be decided in an Oct. 15 referendum.

Shiite leaders signaled they had lost patience with protracted negotiating and wanted to refer the draft approved by them and the Kurds last Monday to the electorate. With repeated missed deadlines and no sign of compromise, a process designed to bring the country's disparate ethnic, cultural and religious groups closer together appeared instead to be pushing them further apart.
A Shiite power play would undercut one of Washington's goals for the constitution: to invigorate a political process that will lure disaffected Sunni Arabs away from the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that U.S. and other foreign troops can begin to go home next year.

The Bush administration, however, expressed optimism that an agreement would be reached.

"I think if Iraqi leaders say that they need a few days more to complete a historic document that will lay a foundation for a new and free Iraq, I think that that is certainly understandable," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said after the delay was announced.

Parliament speaker Hajim al-Hassani, a Sunni who was elected on the mostly Sunni ticket headed by former President Ghazi al-Yawer, also said he remained hopeful of a deal.

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A 3rd time? Hmmmm, they've had several months to turn this war torn Islamic state into a democracy. What's the hold up?
 

jamesp

In Memory...
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I believe the hold up is a mock government created by us Americans. It is so radically different than most of the Iraqis are used to that they are having a hard time fully understanding and fulfilling the ideals of Democracy.
 

voiceofreason

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jamesp said:
I believe the hold up is a mock government created by us Americans. It is so radically different than most of the Iraqis are used to that they are having a hard time fully understanding and fulfilling the ideals of Democracy.
Ummm, perhaps you missed my sarcasm....

What Bush has tried to sell as "Instant" Democracy is a load of shit. He's such a naieve small town hillbilly. Those people don't want Democracy, they want what they know. They don't even know what Democracy is. Do you think a course called "Democracy 101" was offered during Saddam's reign?
 

Darklight

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perhaps Democracy for dummies...
 

jamesp

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voiceofreason said:
Ummm, perhaps you missed my sarcasm....

What Bush has tried to sell as "Instant" Democracy is a load of shit. He's such a naieve small town hillbilly. Those people don't want Democracy, they want what they know. They don't even know what Democracy is. Do you think a course called "Democracy 101" was offered during Saddam's reign?
nah, i got it, i was just stating the obvious because some people are just that stupid.
 
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One of the biggest problems is that many of the progressive Arabs (yes, they exist, although not 'progressive' by Western standards) really DO want a democratic style government. The real problem is that they have no frame of reference, no experience, and no idea what a democracy should look and feel like. That's going to have to come over time, if at all.
The other problem is that the progressives, while wanting democracy, want it in a form that does not shake their muslim world to its foundations. They do not really want to separate things like church and state...it is impossible to separate the two. It's just going to take them a while to figure it out.
A lot of people all seem to think it will happen in a week just coz Bush says it will..
 

jamesp

In Memory...
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I was thinking on my way home (lots of time to think, 1:20 min drive) and was paralleling Vietnam with the war today. Vietnam was a war we could not win, because the Vietnamese were fighting for their homeland. They used horrible tactics at times, like strapping grenades to innocent people and sending them into enemy ranks. Well, is that that much more horrible than the suicide bombings in Iraq? We are fighting a war we cannot win, there is no way to stomp out that shit (People fighting the invading infidels) in Iraq. We do not control Iraq, we control one area of Baghdad (Green Zone). This is not Democracy fostering, this is making a present day ghetto. You basically have to "show your papers". The US was trying to stop Communism in Vietnam for pretty much 21 years (1954 - 1975). It took 67,000 American soldiers to learn that we could not win. How many will it take this time?

Maybe if we just pull out, instead if pushing for a spiffy new constitution, they would just work it out on their own now. I guess we have planted the idea of Democracy, so some people would take to that, but if the Shiite Muslims want their own constitution fine, North Iraq - South Iraq. Big fucking deal.

I know plenty of people have already figured this out, but hey, figured I'd jump on the "Comparing Operation Enduring Freedom to Vietnam War" bandwagon.
 

shiggy1016

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After 2 1/4 centuries of "perfecting" democracy we still don't have it perfect even in this country. This will not be a simple process. It even took quite a while after the colonies gained their independece for them to come up with the idea of creating a national government (at first we had the Articles of Confederation- a modern day legislative branch with no executive to back it up, or judicial to ensure consistancy). We simply cannot pull out of Iraq now. To do so would simply cause the country to fall back into anarchy, and thousands of Iraqi lives would be lost.

Another thing, think about the number of troops we have lost thus far. There have been more than 5x that number lost to homicide during the same stretch of time. Although we have lost a lot of men and women their numbers really aren't as high as the media would have you believe. They put their lives on the line for us, and that makes their deaths sell more commercials and ads. Don't let the media fool you.
 

voiceofreason

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shiggy1016 said:
We simply cannot pull out of Iraq now. To do so would simply cause the country to fall back into anarchy, and thousands of Iraqi lives would be lost.
I smell a red stater.

Do you understand that we have killed 10's of 1000's of Iraqi people? So, you're saying, if we stay they have to die, and if we go they have to die.

Well, if that's true, let someone else foot the biil, Eh?
 

King Goldfish

Banned - What an Asshat!
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voiceofreason said:
Ummm, perhaps you missed my sarcasm....

What Bush has tried to sell as "Instant" Democracy is a load of shit. He's such a naieve small town hillbilly. Those people don't want Democracy, they want what they know. They don't even know what Democracy is. Do you think a course called "Democracy 101" was offered during Saddam's reign?

^Agreed

Their religion wont allow democracy. I fear all this fighting and dying will lead to a civil war on their part. We have alot of Bush Supporters in my town as well as vets. I support the soldiers coming home in one piece but this war (Which was needed to remove suddam) is turning into a big problem. Im not saying this war is justified because It started off that way. Suddam needed to be removed and he was. Let them deal with their own problems, and if they have another suddam gain power, we come back.

I feel there is more to the story though. Some say America wants to controll their Oil. We cant steal their Oil from them. We buy their Oil. So that conspiracy is flushed down the toilet. The US wouldnt Steal Oil from another nation. We seem to have a bad habbit of overspending and giving monies away, its not our Nature to steal from other Nations.

One Example is the US (Other then occupying North America) has never taken land in its name as many other Nations have. America has never invaded Poland or France. American has never Invaded china and took controll of Hong Kong, or the Republic of the Congo or Australia.

People say Americans control the world, The only muscle we might flex and perhaps Abuse slight powers is our Ability to keep ourselves from being the Target of a rogue nation with Nukes. This is why We are in Iraq. Next stop is Iran and then eventually the NK.

But trying to enforce Democracy in Iraq is going to take a miracle. I fear for the future of this world. We're spending to much time on some stupid country that has very little ability to create such weapons of Mass Destruction (at this time) and almost no time or attention on those that can. We should also condem Russia for building such Power Plants in iran and north korea. Who the fuck in Russia thought this would be a great idea? How much Money did Russia make off of this? Not enough to create future terrorism.
 

shiggy1016

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voiceofreason said:
I smell a red stater.

Do you understand that we have killed 10's of 1000's of Iraqi people? So, you're saying, if we stay they have to die, and if we go they have to die.

Well, if that's true, let someone else foot the biil, Eh?

I say that if we pull out now, everyone who has died thus far has died for nothing. But maybe, if we stay the course they will have died for one of the greatest causes: human freedom. No one complained when thousands of lives were lost in Normandy. True, the Iraqis are not our people, but they are our fellow man. Is their freedom not worth our lives just as much as ours is?

King Goldfish said:
Suddam needed to be removed and he was. Let them deal with their own problems, and if they have another suddam gain power, we come back.
You need to stop opening your mouth, you just sound dumber and dumber. First of all, it's Saddam. Secondly, who the hell would ever want to have to go back into that shit hole?

King Goldfish said:
I feel there is more to the story though. Some say America wants to controll their Oil. We cant steal their Oil from them. We buy their Oil. So that conspiracy is flushed down the toilet. The US wouldnt Steal Oil from another nation. We seem to have a bad habbit of overspending and giving monies away, its not our Nature to steal from other Nations.

One Example is the US (Other then occupying North America) has never taken land in its name as many other Nations have. America has never invaded Poland or France. American has never Invaded china and took controll of Hong Kong, or the Republic of the Congo or Australia.
Yes, we are not stealing their oil. Very good. But, in case you don't know your history, allow me to enlighten you. We did shit to other countries repeatedly in the past. We invaded Hawaii (if you don't believe that ask a true Hawaiin), there was the Spanish-Am war (a land grab), and my personal favorite the Bad Neighbor Policy towards all of South America. Don't forget that we did occupy the Philipines, and basically waged biological warfare/genocide against the native Americans.
:owned2:
 

voiceofreason

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shiggy1016 said:
I say that if we pull out now, everyone who has died thus far has died for nothing. But maybe, if we stay the course they will have died for one of the greatest causes: human freedom.
Dude, they are "NOT" going to be free, it's a fucked up Islamic state, it's always going to be. Stop being a Bush Butt Boy...
 

shiggy1016

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voiceofreason said:
Dude, they are "NOT" going to be free, it's a fucked up Islamic state, it's always going to be. Stop being a Bush Butt Boy...
Odd that your tag reads "seeker of truth," you seem to think you know exactly how everything is going to work.

Would their freedom not include the freedom to practice whatever religion they so choose? Even orthodox christianity doesn't have true equality between the sexes.

As for your refrence to Clarence Darrow in your sig, it was William Jennings Bryant who won the Scopes Monkey Trail.
 
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Eh...but it will be fun to watch.

king_goldfish said:
I fear all this fighting and dying will lead to a civil war on their part
You don't have to fear it...that's what they're TRYING to accomplish.
All these opinions that we 'created' the insurgency...freaking idiots. Those people were there the whole time, it's just that Saddam would have made them kill their families and then would have chopped their heads off for doing what they're getting away with now. They WANT civil war...they haven't tried to hide the fact.
Ironically, they want to start a civil war by turning the Iraqis against themselves and the Americans (coz the America is the Great Satan), but it's us that they owe for that very chance to start their civil war. They'll never see it that way...they'll never figure out that if they just wait us out, we'll go home and then they can rape, kill, pillage, and burn to their hearts content.
 

voiceofreason

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shiggy1016 said:
Odd that your tag reads "seeker of truth," you seem to think you know exactly how everything is going to work.

Would their freedom not include the freedom to practice whatever religion they so choose? Even orthodox christianity doesn't have true equality between the sexes.

As for your refrence to Clarence Darrow in your sig, it was William Jennings Bryant who won the Scopes Monkey Trail.


They will be free to choose the Islamic State religion. WAKE UP!

It's a Clarence Darrow quote, that's why I "quoted" him...
 

shiggy1016

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voiceofreason said:


They will be free to choose the Islamic State religion. WAKE UP!
And your point is? If choosing that will bring peace and stability to their region then why shouldn't they go for it? They should all be allowed to believe as they wish. That includes religion, politics, and ideologies.

It's a Clarence Darrow quote, that's why I "quoted" him...
No shit, really? But he did lose the trial, and that was my point. :bonk:
 
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shiggy1016 said:
Would their freedom not include the freedom to practice whatever religion they so choose? Even orthodox christianity doesn't have true equality between the sexes.
It may, but it most likely will not...at least in so many words. They will more likely remain tolerant of other religions, but it will also depend on what kind of people make up their legislature. There are moderates and hard-liners, just as in any other country or religion. There are people who pay lip-service, and there are devout muslims.
The point is that their democracy will not look, taste, feel, or smell like ours. In fact, it may not even turn out to even resemble democracy by any definition that we, as Americans, will understand or accept. Whatever.
They'll probably drive the damn country right into the ground and we'll have to go back and pump billions of dollars into it in aid.
 

Nailbomb

I'm just really nice.
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shiggy1016 said:
Odd that your tag reads "seeker of truth," you seem to think you know exactly how everything is going to work.
Same with you, only you're claiming the opposite will happen. :rolleyes:

Voiceofreason: If we pull back, they'll be free to choose their own government.

shiggy1016: If we pull back, there will be anarchy.



voiceofreason said:
[Bush is] such a naieve small town hillbilly.
He came to Arizona this morning to talk about pharmaceuticals or something. The location of the meeting? The El Mirage RV and Golf Club.
 

shiggy1016

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FlipTheState said:
It may, but it most likely will not...at least in so many words. They will more likely remain tolerant of other religions, but it will also depend on what kind of people make up their legislature. There are moderates and hard-liners, just as in any other country or religion. There are people who pay lip-service, and there are devout muslims.
The point is that their democracy will not look, taste, feel, or smell like ours. In fact, it may not even turn out to even resemble democracy by any definition that we, as Americans, will understand or accept. Whatever.
They'll probably drive the damn country right into the ground and we'll have to go back and pump billions of dollars into it in aid.
Excellent point. Their idea of democracy may not look like ours. That's fine. Democracy might not work for everyone. A particular form of government isn't as important as basic human freedoms. A monarchy that tolerates freedom of speech and religion would be fine. As for if they drive themselves into the ground: I say we let the U.N. actually do what it was designed to do and take care of them if that happens.
 
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Nailbomb said:
Same with you, only you're claiming the opposite will happen. :rolleyes:

Voiceofreason: If we pull back, they'll be free to choose their own government.

shiggy1016: If we pull back, there will be anarchy.
LOL..actually, in a way...they're saying the same thing. Ironic.


He came to Arizona this morning to talk about pharmaceuticals or something. The location of the meeting? The El Mirage RV and Golf Club.
Is that something for old folks, or rich old folks? Is that RV as in Recreational Vehicle? As in big oversized mobile homes that old people drive around in their retirement?
Why on earth would he give a speech there?