Ok I happened to be walking through the living room and the news was on. Today happens to be some day for Israel and there was a parade. But, I just learned today that not all Jews accept Israel as a Jewish state. Can someone tell me, what exactly a Zionist is? I have no idea what it means. According to some Jews, Israel practices Zionism and not Judaism.
WTF ... IS WTF!?
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My best understanding of Zionism is this.
In the 1880s when European Jews settles in Palestine (The land that God refered to as Israel) none of the arab muslim and christians occupying Palestine payed much attention to them. The Jews settled into the baren desert region where no one else occupied. When Jews were able to actually grow food and prosper in the desert the Palistinians decided to chase them out because more Jews were moving in. The Jews actually won a battle with the palestinians and decided to form a group that I believe was Zionist Freedom Bregade or something like that. The name Zionist is obviouslly named after Mount Zion.
They worked for nearly 70 years to have a state of independence. They actually worked with Britian after WWI to build a state of Israel in Palestine so that Polish, Russian, German and other Jews could settle and live in peace. For 2000 years Jews have bounced from Nation to Nation but have always been persecuted by christians and other non jews.
After WWII when Adolf hitler and stalin was known to have slaughters millions of Jews the United Nation that was formed in 1947 (Origginally in San Francisco) decided to form the state of israel.
Now remember, Jews Occupied this land 3500 years ago and where chased out by Romans then when Christianity became popular the Roman Catholics ruled much of Palestine and Persia until like 1200ad in which then they pulled out and Muslims took over the region.
During WWII not only where europeans and asians fighting each other but many tribal wars too place in persia (Part of iran and iraq) and arab nations. When the war ended the United nations took controll and started moving borders around and created the State of Israel. But Israel was never really a Nation Reconized.. it was a Promised made to Abraham and his sons which is actually much larger then the State of Israel.
Most people say relgion shouldnt take part in this but that whole area uses religion in wars all the time.
Now obviouslly to form a state of israel they had to ask people who occupied land for Generations to pack up and leave. at frist Jews allowed many of the Arabs to keep their homes and land but were forced to reconize their home as being the the nation state of israel and of course money changed, tax laws changed and other laws changed.
Obviouslly Muslims dont want to pay taxes to Jews and vice versa so overtime you had resistance that lead to 2 more wars. Both times Israel winning.
this is why they are called Zionist.
Now for a bit of religous history in order for you to understand why Muslims feel this should be their land is this.
Abrahams wife woulnd not concieve children when they first married. So Abraham took a servent to mother his first child. She was an African woman and she gave brith to Ishmael. Ishmael was known to be a wild child.
Then Abrahamas wife suddenly became pregnant. I believe Issac was the first child and also came Aronn and Moses.
When Ishmael grew up he was very wild and loved to party (or so the story goes) and Arbaham asked him to leave the tribe. Ishmael left for north Africa and it is believe by Muslims that he is the begining of their Ancestrial bloodline while Jews are from Isaac, Moses and aaron.
the Muslims faith started after christianity though some 628 years later when Muhhamid was to have decended to heaven and a whole relgion of Islam was created. it is their believe that they should inherit the land of Israel and as some Jews have told me they have completly plagiarized the torah (The first testament).
Please dont challenge me on religion because thats a whole different tangent in itself. Im just pointing out the basic facts. I personally feel that Muslim have manipulated much of the orriginal text and in fact it is written that Jews and Christians are considered second class citizen to islam and that we should be forced to pay taxes and that anyone who is not religious should convert to islam or die. and it also says "To take sword to the infedels who will not obey these laws) which is basically Pagan, Athiest, Jews and Christians.
but thats basically what Zionist is about.
In the 1880s when European Jews settles in Palestine (The land that God refered to as Israel) none of the arab muslim and christians occupying Palestine payed much attention to them. The Jews settled into the baren desert region where no one else occupied. When Jews were able to actually grow food and prosper in the desert the Palistinians decided to chase them out because more Jews were moving in. The Jews actually won a battle with the palestinians and decided to form a group that I believe was Zionist Freedom Bregade or something like that. The name Zionist is obviouslly named after Mount Zion.
They worked for nearly 70 years to have a state of independence. They actually worked with Britian after WWI to build a state of Israel in Palestine so that Polish, Russian, German and other Jews could settle and live in peace. For 2000 years Jews have bounced from Nation to Nation but have always been persecuted by christians and other non jews.
After WWII when Adolf hitler and stalin was known to have slaughters millions of Jews the United Nation that was formed in 1947 (Origginally in San Francisco) decided to form the state of israel.
Now remember, Jews Occupied this land 3500 years ago and where chased out by Romans then when Christianity became popular the Roman Catholics ruled much of Palestine and Persia until like 1200ad in which then they pulled out and Muslims took over the region.
During WWII not only where europeans and asians fighting each other but many tribal wars too place in persia (Part of iran and iraq) and arab nations. When the war ended the United nations took controll and started moving borders around and created the State of Israel. But Israel was never really a Nation Reconized.. it was a Promised made to Abraham and his sons which is actually much larger then the State of Israel.
Most people say relgion shouldnt take part in this but that whole area uses religion in wars all the time.
Now obviouslly to form a state of israel they had to ask people who occupied land for Generations to pack up and leave. at frist Jews allowed many of the Arabs to keep their homes and land but were forced to reconize their home as being the the nation state of israel and of course money changed, tax laws changed and other laws changed.
Obviouslly Muslims dont want to pay taxes to Jews and vice versa so overtime you had resistance that lead to 2 more wars. Both times Israel winning.
this is why they are called Zionist.
Now for a bit of religous history in order for you to understand why Muslims feel this should be their land is this.
Abrahams wife woulnd not concieve children when they first married. So Abraham took a servent to mother his first child. She was an African woman and she gave brith to Ishmael. Ishmael was known to be a wild child.
Then Abrahamas wife suddenly became pregnant. I believe Issac was the first child and also came Aronn and Moses.
When Ishmael grew up he was very wild and loved to party (or so the story goes) and Arbaham asked him to leave the tribe. Ishmael left for north Africa and it is believe by Muslims that he is the begining of their Ancestrial bloodline while Jews are from Isaac, Moses and aaron.
the Muslims faith started after christianity though some 628 years later when Muhhamid was to have decended to heaven and a whole relgion of Islam was created. it is their believe that they should inherit the land of Israel and as some Jews have told me they have completly plagiarized the torah (The first testament).
Please dont challenge me on religion because thats a whole different tangent in itself. Im just pointing out the basic facts. I personally feel that Muslim have manipulated much of the orriginal text and in fact it is written that Jews and Christians are considered second class citizen to islam and that we should be forced to pay taxes and that anyone who is not religious should convert to islam or die. and it also says "To take sword to the infedels who will not obey these laws) which is basically Pagan, Athiest, Jews and Christians.
but thats basically what Zionist is about.
and why is this important
this aint www.historyofthezion.com
this aint www.historyofthezion.com
America is ran by christians and jews and so its the way it is.
Dont ask me. Im not pro zionist but I dont hate jews.
Our famous hero Charles Lindbergh was very open about being anti Zionist. They called him an Anti Semitic which is 2 different things. If you say anything about Zionism you are label a Jew Hater. Its 2 different things. Even some rabbis are against Zionism. It seems to be another force controlling the world.
I support israel for jews but Me paying a Jew tax in this country to support innocent christians and muslims being killed by Israel is something that turns my stomach.
Goldfish, a good friend of mine is a muslim, and he enlightened me on a few issues, basically what you have said in your post. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, I just want to share some knowledge, or at least my friend's knowledge
What my friend has told me, that the quran was the continuation of the torah and the bible, thats about it.
I really pissed my friend off when I told him about killing the pagens that do not obey the laws. He showed me the quote in the quran, and apparently it does not say "laws" but it said "treaty, agreement, accord, etc." I asked him why, and he told me that arabic is a werid language.
The part about Christains and Jews being second class citizens make sense if the goverment was a theocracy, a muslim theocracy. And you have to admit we did do that too, with like slavery and the treatment of Native Americans, and other stuff. But I'll get back to on that with a probably more accurate response.
What my friend has told me, that the quran was the continuation of the torah and the bible, thats about it.
I really pissed my friend off when I told him about killing the pagens that do not obey the laws. He showed me the quote in the quran, and apparently it does not say "laws" but it said "treaty, agreement, accord, etc." I asked him why, and he told me that arabic is a werid language.
The part about Christains and Jews being second class citizens make sense if the goverment was a theocracy, a muslim theocracy. And you have to admit we did do that too, with like slavery and the treatment of Native Americans, and other stuff. But I'll get back to on that with a probably more accurate response.
thats the problem.. Your friend maybe Americanized?
I didnt want to get into a theology argument with anyone. Im not a holy roller.
I understand somethings get lost in translations. But it depends on the Muslim you speak to. I know alot of Muslims in america are a bit more liberal. and even the bible and torah speak of harsh punishments. But if you talk to hardcore muslims from Afghanastan (Which my neighbors were in the 1980s and I now feel were probublly Al Queda) you would know that a "true muslim" must live by the literal Qu'ran which clearly states that Jews and Christians are "Infedels" and that though the Qu'ran does preach forgiveness that it also says that Jews and Christians should be punished for not accepting the islamic laws.
In the Christian belief.. God will be the punisher. but in Islam it is men who kill for God. It is men who will punish men. This is a threat to my existance. I have no hate towards muslims if they are peaceful.. and most American muslims are peaceful. But it still is a threat to me and my family to know that the way their holy docteran is truely a threat to my beliefs and others around me.
But i will be honest and say there are crazy christian groups out there too. Look at David Koresh. the only problem is he violated the scriptures where as the Qu'ran truely permits Man to kill other men, vs Jesus who told men to turn the other cheeck.
Do you see my point? its not the same.
I didnt want to get into a theology argument with anyone. Im not a holy roller.
I understand somethings get lost in translations. But it depends on the Muslim you speak to. I know alot of Muslims in america are a bit more liberal. and even the bible and torah speak of harsh punishments. But if you talk to hardcore muslims from Afghanastan (Which my neighbors were in the 1980s and I now feel were probublly Al Queda) you would know that a "true muslim" must live by the literal Qu'ran which clearly states that Jews and Christians are "Infedels" and that though the Qu'ran does preach forgiveness that it also says that Jews and Christians should be punished for not accepting the islamic laws.
In the Christian belief.. God will be the punisher. but in Islam it is men who kill for God. It is men who will punish men. This is a threat to my existance. I have no hate towards muslims if they are peaceful.. and most American muslims are peaceful. But it still is a threat to me and my family to know that the way their holy docteran is truely a threat to my beliefs and others around me.
But i will be honest and say there are crazy christian groups out there too. Look at David Koresh. the only problem is he violated the scriptures where as the Qu'ran truely permits Man to kill other men, vs Jesus who told men to turn the other cheeck.
Do you see my point? its not the same.
i'm not really religous but its obvious civilization wouldn't be where it is today without these "holy laws" to keep people from living like animals...and i think maybe the reason we have this whole cycle of violence in the middle east between israel and the palestinians is because both they're religions say the old eye for and eye tooth for a tooth deal...and it just ends up that there's always someone out for revenge and thats enough to keep the cycle going.....i'm not saying christianity has been anymore civilized (crusades, witch burnings, inquisitions, etc etc list goes on) but jesus was a pretty enlightened guy, forgiveness is a really hard thing to do...especially when u see whats going on to people in the world....ha sometimes i hate tv...
did that make anysense?dfhjklf
did that make anysense?dfhjklf
seriously now, blame it all on religion, so do i. cuz that's the major reason for war throughout history. remember when we learned bout the crusades in the dark ages? shit like that happening all the time. i'm not saying religion is all bad, cuz obviously some ppl seem to like it, but the geeks who are in charge of a specific religion are not as forward thinking as the rest of the world (the earth was flat for quite some time, remember? :bonk
. same problem happening now, cuz the islam is just getting out of their dark ages, at least in the middle-east. muslims in western countries are much more forward thinking, generally speaking.
but i have to say i'm glad to be an atheïst, no god to worry bout. just have to worry if i've got enough money to pay the bartender at the end of the evening
. same problem happening now, cuz the islam is just getting out of their dark ages, at least in the middle-east. muslims in western countries are much more forward thinking, generally speaking. but i have to say i'm glad to be an atheïst, no god to worry bout. just have to worry if i've got enough money to pay the bartender at the end of the evening
:-
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