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Headlines Morons 1 | Science 0

Jung

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Kansas BOE rewrites definition of science

New standards question accuracy of evolutionary theory

TOPEKA, Kansas (AP) -- At the risk of re-igniting the same heated nationwide debate it sparked six years ago, the Kansas Board of Education approved new public school science standards Tuesday that cast doubt on the theory of evolution.

The 6-4 vote was a victory for "intelligent design" advocates who helped draft the standards. Intelligent design holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power.

Critics of the language charged that it was an attempt to inject God and creationism into public schools in violation of the separation of church and state.

All six of those who voted for the standards were Republicans. Two Republicans and two Democrats voted against them.

"This is a sad day. We're becoming a laughingstock of not only the nation, but of the world, and I hate that," said board member Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat.

Supporters of the standards said they will promote academic freedom. "It gets rid of a lot of dogma that's being taught in the classroom today," said board member John Bacon, an Olathe Republican.

The standards state that high school students must understand major evolutionary concepts. But they also declare that some concepts have been challenged in recent years by fossil evidence and molecular biology.

The challenged concepts cited include the basic Darwinian theory that all life had a common origin and the theory that natural chemical processes created the building blocks of life.

In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.


The standards will be used to develop student tests measuring how well schools teach science. Decisions about what is taught in classrooms will remain with 300 local school boards, but some educators fear pressure will increase in some communities to teach less about evolution or more about intelligent design. (Read how Kansas came to this point)

The vote marked the third time in six years that the Kansas board has rewritten standards with evolution as the central issue.

In 1999, the board eliminated most references to evolution, a move Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould said was akin to teaching "American history without Lincoln."

Two years later, after voters replaced three members, the board reverted to evolution-friendly standards. Elections in 2002 and 2004 changed the board's composition again, making it more conservative.

Many scientists and other critics contend creationists repackaged old ideas in scientific-sounding language to get around a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1987 that banned teaching the biblical story of creation in public schools.

The Kansas board's action is part of a national debate. In Pennsylvania, a judge is expected to rule soon in a lawsuit against the Dover school board's policy of requiring high school students to learn about intelligent design in biology class. (Read about the Dover debate)

In August, President Bush endorsed teaching intelligent design alongside evolution.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/08/evolution.debate.ap/index.html

What the fuck is wrong with Kansas? This is nothing more than a retarded religious agenda. Religion is NOT science, nor should it be taught in science class. These people just can't be happy that they live in a country that was founded on religious freedom. Go to church if you want to learn about make believe creation theories, but leave your religious propaganda out of our children's science classes. :mad:
 
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#2
That is lame, they only say that "the universe is so complex" because people overcomplicate it in general. I go to school to learn, not have religious bullshit crammed down my throat. Bad move Kansas. :thumbsdn:
 
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How about, teach both?

No, I don't mean cram religion down the throats of the students, but rather let the kids choose what to believe.

I went to a christian school, and we learned both about creation and evolution.

Although, as you can probably guess, all my teachers took the "evolution is bullshit" approach. :happysad:
 

Jung

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How about, teach both?

No, I don't mean cram religion down the throats of the students, but rather let the kids choose what to believe.
Because when you decide to teach intelligent design in science class you bastardize what we consider science. Science is testable and logical theories and facts, creationism is a myth - an opinion at best - but it is NOT a scientific theory. As the article shows, these people are rewriting the definition of science to fit their religious agenda. What's next? Rewriting 'science' to include religious teachings? This is a foot-in-the-door for more religious propaganda being forced upon our young students.

Evolution can be demonstrated and proven, intelligent design can't. ID is nothing more than some religious zealots making up an opposing "theory" to fit their belief system. Religion and spirituality are things left up to parents and their respective religious teachers (priests, nuns, et al) to teach, not state sanctioned and funded public schools. If these parents want to let their children "choose for themselves" they should take them to church, private religious school, Sunday school, or some other form of religious event.

Not to mention that evolution doesn't denounce the possibility that a 'higher being' could have set the whole process up. Some people are just too simple (or brainwashed) to get that. This is not about teaching two valid and logical scientific theories, it's about pushing a religious agenda. Period.
 
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True. Sorry, I'm tired and not thinking straight.:happysad:

A lot of public schools here have a religion class. Some have more than one.

All christian schools have a bible class, which you have to pass with a 60% or you'll fail the grade.

I got 61%.:happysad:
 

Nailbomb

I'm just really nice.
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Here's a couple clippings of those articles that especially caught my eye.

CNN.com said:
Led by a conservative Christian chairman who says evolutionary theory is incompatible with the biblical account of God's creation of life on earth, the Kansas Board of Education plans to insert questions about the veracity of evolution theory into statewide teaching standards.

The action has outraged scientists across the nation and both the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers Association have refused Kansas' request to use their copyrighted material.
CNN.com said:
Evolution under attack

Now, the new Kansas standards, which outline what teachers should teach and test on, leave evolutionary principles in the curriculum but insert phrasing that encourages students to question their validity. The standards also delete certain text about how science is defined.
 

Piro

From appaled to applauding, controversy.
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"This is a sad day. We're becoming a laughingstock of not only the nation, but of the world, and I hate that," said board member Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat.
Damn right.

Religion should be kept separate from science. Full stop.

I think those guys most come from another planet. :rolleyes:
 

Hater808

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This is how it should be. Teach science as science. Then teach creationism as a part of a religion class. Since that’s the categories they fall under. One defines facts for the human race; one defines facts of religion which we all know are not proved well at all, if at all. Problem is: the religion class would have to be a world religion class to be PC, then "they" would get pissed there not teaching their religion and their agenda. I can't believe people can be so ignorant and so racist (wrong word but can't say religious). They don't care what anyone else believes right or wrong, fucking morons. I going to tell them that bush said a sheep’s the next savior, then laugh.
 

Boycott

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You know, I never learnt any evolution theory in biology, but I learnt both and interventionism in anthropology... I think that teachers should just teach what they think is important and feel that the students could benefit from learning...
 

voiceofreason

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Unforgiven said:
How about, teach both?

No, I don't mean cram religion down the throats of the students, but rather let the kids choose what to believe.

I went to a christian school, and we learned both about creation and evolution.

Although, as you can probably guess, all my teachers took the "evolution is bullshit" approach. :happysad:
You just lost so many points....


Science is Science, Religion is Religion - they are not and NEVER will be equal. They don't have any thing to do with one another.

Let's try not to dumb down this country anymore then it already is...Thanks
 

Captain 151

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As a historian, I'm glad I don't live in Kansas. I'd love to challange that movement. Big ups to ye who said that science is based on fact and supported by numbers and such and creationism is a myth.
 

Hater808

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voiceofreason said:
You just lost so many points....


Science is Science, Religion is Religion - they are not and NEVER will be equal. They don't have any thing to do with one another.

Let's try not to dumb down this country anymore then it already is...Thanks
Unforgiven said:
True. Sorry, I'm ti
red and not thinking straight.

A lot of public schools here have a religion class. Some have more than one.

All christian schools have a bible class, which you have to pass with a 60% or you'll fail the grade.

I got 61%.
He was able to repent :) before I had a chance to say the same thing. He lost no points in my book. still morons 1 | science 0
 

Boycott

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voiceofreason said:
You just lost so many points....


Science is Science, Religion is Religion - they are not and NEVER will be equal. They don't have any thing to do with one another.

Let's try not to dumb down this country anymore then it already is...Thanks
I think everyone is losing perspective on this...

This is about EDUCATION, correct? Therefore wouldn't the more things you taught someone be better?

I mean, highschool classrooms are definately not as strict as they may be portrayed to be... I mean, I'm reading along and seeing "This MUST be taught, this MUST be left out. You're not allowed to teach this." but really, who's going to complain when it's left up to a kid to decide without a biased opinion jabbing them, that evolutionism is a better theory than creationism? Thats all they are is THEORIES. No one has hard proof that nails 100% the way that mankind came to be. Thats why it's evolution THEORY and creationism THEORY.

Try to "dumb down" the country? With what? Theories? I thought that teaching kids things would actually make them smarter.

Sure, you may agree with one or the other, but you know both. These kids don't. If you leave it up to them to learn it on their own, most of them won't, unless they're really interested in it.

All that people are doing by restricting what is taught in classrooms is just that. They're taking away from opportunities that kids have to learn this shit, and I think that thats where people are missing the point. It's got nothing to do with "Oh that's religion, don't teach it in a science class", it's got to do with If the kids have the opportunity to learn this stuff?
 

void

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i'm willing to bet a few souls on the final score of this one..

morons - lots, hypothetic lots.
science - less, but formulated to be a win.
 

voiceofreason

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Boycott said:
I think everyone is losing perspective on this...

This is about EDUCATION, correct? Therefore wouldn't the more things you taught someone be better?
Sorry, you don't get it.

The question is not whether religious stories can be taught in religious schools. No problems there.

The problem is when a "certain" group wants to undermine hard science with it's own agenda.

Do you understand what you are asking for? So, we let the Fundamentaist Christians teach what they believe in SCIENCE class, then the Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, Islamists, Budhists, devil-worshippers, they all have to have their say, right?

We need to stop the ignorant from polluting the school system with this Sunday school nonsense.
 

Jung

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#16
Boycott said:
This is about EDUCATION, correct? Therefore wouldn't the more things you taught someone be better?
In most cases I would agree with you, but not when it goes against separation of church and state and bastardizes what we know as science. Not to mention alienates those who aren't of Christian faith. These people are basically coming in and saying "hey, your science is wrong, but our "theory" is correct and you HAVE to teach it because evolution doesn't agree with our scriptures!" That's not scientific, nor does it have ANY place is a respectable science class. Ever.

I mean, highschool classrooms are definately not as strict as they may be portrayed to be... I mean, I'm reading along and seeing "This MUST be taught, this MUST be left out. You're not allowed to teach this." but really, who's going to complain when it's left up to a kid to decide without a biased opinion jabbing them, that evolutionism is a better theory than creationism? Thats all they are is THEORIES. No one has hard proof that nails 100% the way that mankind came to be. Thats why it's evolution THEORY and creationism THEORY.
Well here's the thing, evolution is _not_ just a theory; it is a demonstrable empirically proven fact. Darwinism, now that _is_ a theory, and one with many holes. But it's _the_ best explanation to be offered thus far. Evolution has been tested, questioned and retested; the very theory of evolution was arrived at through scientific procedure.

Intelligent design is not tested, it has absolutely nothing to do with science, nor can it be proven; by the very definition of the word it is a myth. There is nothing scientific about it. Period. ID amounts to some christians saying "you're science is wrong and our religious myths are right!" Nothing more.

You can't teach religiously fueled dogma as science in a respectable academic institution, no matter who it appeases. If these zealots want to push their agendas, let them do it in their own denominational schools, or on Sundays. That is a right they have in America, just like others have the right to receive an education devoid of religious agenda or dogma. There is a time and place for religion, and it's not in publicly funded schools.

These people want to teach a fairly new opinion as a documented and tested scientific theory; that is ridiculous. Some even to the point of forcing it upon our young students, who may or may not have faith it said religion or subsequent theories.
Try to "dumb down" the country? With what? Theories? I thought that teaching kids things would actually make them smarter.
I think the dumbing down happens when we rewrite the definition of science to encompass untested, and even untestable, religious dogma. Intelligent design is beyond testing, because it's a religious belief, and therefore infallible to those who believe it. How do you logically, and with a straight face, teach that as science?
Sure, you may agree with one or the other, but you know both. These kids don't. If you leave it up to them to learn it on their own, most of them won't, unless they're really interested in it.
Do you learn about god in science class? Have you heard the term before? Do you understand the concept? Of course you do, because it's a common concept in society, just like ID is. You didn't need some science teacher to explain a "controversial supreme being that may or may not exist, but we thought you should know about it to make this group of people happy" in class for you to know and understand the concept.

Intelligent design, being a religious theory, should remain exclusive to being taught in churches, in religious schools and upon parent's discretion - just like the concept of god.
 

Boycott

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Hmm... I completely forgot about other religions...
Odd, as I usually take them into account
*shrug* Thanks for clearing that up :)

And Jung - I can see where you're coming from, but the way we learned creationism was "There's also a religious side to this, where a god or greater being created man"

That was basically all he said on top of Darwinism and Evolution theory... Then it was on the test. Simple as that. Creationism doesn't even need to include a specific god, but if x religion is forcing it upon a public school to learn it in science with THEIR perception of god, that's going a little bit overboard. I don't think that Creationism should totally be left out of science classes, possibly touched upon, just so the kids know its out there...
I understand that Evolution theory has EVIDENCE (Which is why it is most likely accepted by most people [including myself] as the most logical answer to the question "where did man come from") making it more scientifically acceptable.
 

gehtfuct

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*The following babble is reason why I stay out of this forum*

You've all made some good points. I don't think that religion is such a bad thing, I just don't think that we should be made to like it should we choose not to. Religion is nothing more than man's way to comfort his inevitable demise. There's no way to prove it anymore than you can disprove it. "The Universe is too complex to not have the hand of God in it." What a bunch of crap. We know less of the workings of the Human brain. I'm sorry, I don't mean to tell you that religion has no place in anything, anymore than you're going to tell me how to love my son. I simply refuse to think that my life is only a test. A test to see if I qualify to witness something from two thousand year old folklore.

One more thing before I leave you to your intellitalking.....

By a show of hands, who still beLIEves in Santa Claus? As a five year old, you couldn't be told that was a lie. How much of this knowledge that you think you have now is a lie? The only way to know for sure is to die.
I'm not going to spend the rest of my life relying on BS that I was told as a child.
 

mmm...cheese

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I believe that Creationism and Evolutionary theories can exist within eachother peacefully. (taking parts from both) One can only agree with Jung's post though, RELIGION IS NOT SCIENCE! If one wants to learn about the Bible, go and PICK UP A BOOK YOU DUMBASS. It's not that hard. Instead of causing all of this contraversy over which one is right, while not even considering for a moment the other side's argument, make yourself knowledgable in both subjects. That you may give a respectable opinion that is of lesser bias and more fact. Now I don't mean to bash on either religion, (I consider evolutionary theories to be a religion as they cannot be fully proven yet,) but, CONSIDER BOTH VIEWS BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION. There is a lot of evidence to prove both the validity of the Bible, and the validity of evolution, but nobody high up there ever considers that they might agree with eachother. Now I have asked many people well learned on this topic, read some books on both views, and I find no reason as to why they don't agree with eachother. If you don't agree with me, prove me wrong.
 

Jung

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#20
And Jung - I can see where you're coming from, but the way we learned creationism was "There's also a religious side to this, where a god or greater being created man"
I would be fine with 'teaching' ID if that's all it would be. But that's hardly the case, and I'm sorry but you'd be a fool to think otherwise; these people want to question evolution, point out it's flaws and offer a religious myth as an alternative to science, in science class. But they offer ID with the caveat that intelligent design has no flaws, because it was set up by a supreme, and perfect, being - therefore rendering it infallible. It's all an agenda to try to impose religious dogma as a valid scientific theory. That is what I have a problem with. These zealots need to seek validation for there beliefs elsewhere.