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Headlines Religion/Science and Free Will

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#1
Please dont turn this into a flame post, but i was pondering on many things and i've have concluded that freewill is invalid from botht he scientific and the christian point of view. i will explain both in turn.

according to christianity god is the all knowling being. if this is true (im referring ot him knowing all) then we cannot have free will because he allready knows everything, so how is it that we can truly be acting on free will if what we do is already going to happen. (not to take this into the realm of entertainment, but the matrix actually does a good job of presenting this philosophy)

scientific is slightly different. for this argument let's assume that there is no god. the most basic particle is the atom. if this is so then our brain is only made up of atoms and the forces that interact between them. conscienceness is an illusion. there is no otherwordly force that is us thinking. (i dont know the exact biophysics of the mind, as a matter of fact i know pretty much nothing in this area, but i know that thoughts and such are just like electrical charges or signals or something.) anyway if our thoughts are just those and atoms always act in the exact same way in the exact same circumstance then a human being will always act the exact same way in the exact same circumstance.
for example: i am sitting here typing this post. no matter how many times you copied the exact environment i am in the date, and everything i will always type this exact same post if the conditions are the same. therefore free will is an illusion.

in my opinion free will is only the concept that it is infinitely complex to gauge someone's actions and thoughts based on the massive number of variables involved.

debate please:
 
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#2
WizardlyFriend said:
Please dont turn this into a flame post, but i was pondering on many things and i've have concluded that freewill is invalid from botht he scientific and the christian point of view. i will explain both in turn.

according to christianity god is the all knowling being. if this is true (im referring ot him knowing all) then we cannot have free will because he allready knows everything, so how is it that we can truly be acting on free will if what we do is already going to happen. (not to take this into the realm of entertainment, but the matrix actually does a good job of presenting this philosophy)
I've asked myself about this many times. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family. Yes, I still live with the same christian family.

The main question I ask refers to Adam and Eve. I'm sure you all (even the non-religious ones) know the story.

God hates sin. God knows everything. God created man. God knew man would sin. God hates sin.

It doesn't really make sense to me.
 
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#3
Unforgiven, you answered yourself and WizardlyFriend, though you may not have realized it. God hates sin, yet He knows we are going to do it. So, why allow us to do it if we don't have free will? Since He is all knowing He could prevent us from doing whatever it is we were going to do that was a sin. Yet, He doesn't. He lets us continue with the choice He knows we'll make. Other's might argue with me, and I will respect those opinions. That is just how I see it.
 

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#4
according to you then tiger, he knows what well do which is sin, but he stands idle. so therefore, some are borned damned.
 

swizeguy

How dare you!?
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#5
Unforgiven said:
I've asked myself about this many times. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family. Yes, I still live with the same christian family.

The main question I ask refers to Adam and Eve. I'm sure you all (even the non-religious ones) know the story.

God hates sin. God knows everything. God created man. God knew man would sin. God hates sin.

It doesn't really make sense to me.
Yes true but i just think about i this way... (im not much of a church going fellow but hear me out) god just kinda sits back and lets things happen right. Until he gets really pissed like with the many many stories on the bible when he got pissed and killed everyone save a few... anyways... he just lets it happen he might know that its going to happen but he doesnt do anything about it.

But then again if there is a bigger story and he knows whats going to happen then you really cant have free will. because by not doing something to in a way try to have free will then its already said that you would not do that thing. But then.... ahh nvm.. gets quite confusing.
 
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#6
WizardlyFriend said:
according to you then tiger, he knows what well do which is sin, but he stands idle. so therefore, some are borned damned.
According to my church, everybody's born damned, unless they're born into the church. :rolleyes:

"We are all concieved and born in sin..."
 
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#7
WizardlyFriend said:
according to you then tiger, he knows what well do which is sin, but he stands idle. so therefore, some are borned damned.
Actually, now that I think about the question more, it's more like something I put in one of the stories I'm writing. Think of God as say, our government, a democratic government. The whole idea of the democratic government is that we have freedoms and we make the decisions, correct? But we don't really make the decisions. The electoral college and Congress really make the decisions for us. The important part is that we believe that we are free and that we make our own choices. Now, put God back in. Say you're in God's position (not trying to be sacreligious, just trying to make a point), you have a plan for the world, but you want your people to be happy. How do you do it and have them be happy? Let them think they're the ones making the decisions in life. If people believe they have free will they are more likely to fulfill God's plans. See what I'm saying?
 

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#8
i understand completely what youre saying. my point is that you cant haven an all knowing god, like the god in christianity, and have free will. even if he lets you do what he knows you are going ot do, free will doesnt exist, because what you are going to do WILL happen. there is no chanign it. if you want to change it then that is osmething that was destined to happen.
 
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#9
WizardlyFriend said:
i understand completely what youre saying. my point is that you cant haven an all knowing god, like the god in christianity, and have free will. even if he lets you do what he knows you are going ot do, free will doesnt exist, because what you are going to do WILL happen. there is no chanign it. if you want to change it then that is osmething that was destined to happen.
Very true, but you can let people believe they have free will. It's not so much the really having it as believing it. Hence, the whole faith thing, which I have strongly no matter what the master plan is.
 

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#10
tiger_86 said:
Very true, but you can let people believe they have free will. It's not so much the really having it as believing it. Hence, the whole faith thing, which I have strongly no matter what the master plan is.
looks like i messed up gods plans then. except not really cause he saw this coming. also im not the first to think such things. :)

i agree with the faith thing you said though. believing no matter what even if common sense or science or philosophy may tell you otherwise. i still believe, im not an atheist. im not exactly christian. i think i fall somewhere between being agnostic and christian. i definitely believe in the foundation of christianity, i just dont so much believe in 'the church'. which is ironic since im catholic.
 

RageAgainst

Chaotic Neutral
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#11
WizardlyFriend said:
Please dont turn this into a flame post, but i was pondering on many things and i've have concluded that freewill is invalid from botht he scientific and the christian point of view. i will explain both in turn.

according to christianity god is the all knowling being. if this is true (im referring ot him knowing all) then we cannot have free will because he allready knows everything, so how is it that we can truly be acting on free will if what we do is already going to happen. (not to take this into the realm of entertainment, but the matrix actually does a good job of presenting this philosophy)

scientific is slightly different. for this argument let's assume that there is no god. the most basic particle is the atom. if this is so then our brain is only made up of atoms and the forces that interact between them. conscienceness is an illusion. there is no otherwordly force that is us thinking. (i dont know the exact biophysics of the mind, as a matter of fact i know pretty much nothing in this area, but i know that thoughts and such are just like electrical charges or signals or something.) anyway if our thoughts are just those and atoms always act in the exact same way in the exact same circumstance then a human being will always act the exact same way in the exact same circumstance.
for example: i am sitting here typing this post. no matter how many times you copied the exact environment i am in the date, and everything i will always type this exact same post if the conditions are the same. therefore free will is an illusion.

in my opinion free will is only the concept that it is infinitely complex to gauge someone's actions and thoughts based on the massive number of variables involved.

debate please:
Awesome. I know this is a little long, but please read it =)

I thought of this one day when I was really high (I think it was after seeing the matrix, it made me think and I came to this). I think it would be theorically possible to pull out an equation of ALL. Let's say we could "pause" the time. Nothing moves, all the atoms stay in their spots. Then let's say you have a brain of near-infinite power to calculate near-infinite numbers of variables. You look at every single atom, what direction it's moving, at what velocity, the forces around every single one of them, and you do it for ALL the atoms in all the universe. When you "unpause" or press play again, you could theorically predict exactly what will happen in a second, in two seconds, in a million years. According to this theory, there is no such things as luck. When you throw a dice, you think luck will decide what number you will get, but no. It's the speed at wich you throw it, the wind the angle etc.. If you throw it in the exact same way, it will always give you the exact same number. So, here's something to think about : everything you do right now could have been theorically predicted 15 billion years ago. If this is true, it means you can also see in the past. An atom hit another one at x speed, you can calculate where the atom came from, etc etc. So theorically, you could see in the past and the future (not GO there, but just see it, figure out what happened and what will happen)


fucked up shit.
 
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#12
My question is why did God make us?
What is our purpose on this earth?
Are we just some little game of a greater being?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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#13
fucktheliberals said:
My question is why did God make us?
What is our purpose on this earth?
Are we just some little game of a greater being?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
According to "Constantine," 'God and Satan are just two little kids playing a game of chess for souls." (I apologize if I messed it up, but the intent is there.)
 

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#14
RageAgainst said:
Awesome. I know this is a little long, but please read it =)

I thought of this one day when I was really high (I think it was after seeing the matrix, it made me think and I came to this). I think it would be theorically possible to pull out an equation of ALL. Let's say we could "pause" the time. Nothing moves, all the atoms stay in their spots. Then let's say you have a brain of near-infinite power to calculate near-infinite numbers of variables. You look at every single atom, what direction it's moving, at what velocity, the forces around every single one of them, and you do it for ALL the atoms in all the universe. When you "unpause" or press play again, you could theorically predict exactly what will happen in a second, in two seconds, in a million years. According to this theory, there is no such things as luck. When you throw a dice, you think luck will decide what number you will get, but no. It's the speed at wich you throw it, the wind the angle etc.. If you throw it in the exact same way, it will always give you the exact same number. So, here's something to think about : everything you do right now could have been theorically predicted 15 billion years ago. If this is true, it means you can also see in the past. An atom hit another one at x speed, you can calculate where the atom came from, etc etc. So theorically, you could see in the past and the future (not GO there, but just see it, figure out what happened and what will happen)


fucked up shit.

unfortunately you'd have to analyze all of the atoms in the entire existance, not just this universe but beyond as well.

as far as waht is our purpose. that is an issue more puzzling than this. what is the meaning of life? it is said that we are simply an amusement to god. that is a valid theory some have posed. if god is all knowing, then why make us? for some sort of entertainmetn? the question "what is the meaning of life" can not be answered ever, by any human to my knowledge. unless you believe that by meditation and prayer you can reach nirvana.
 
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#15
fucktheliberals said:
My question is why did God make us?
What is our purpose on this earth?
Are we just some little game of a greater being?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
As my church would say, we're all a part of a greater plan. We were all put on this earth to bring glory to god, blah blah blah.

Seems more to me he put us on this earth for his own entertainment.
 
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#16
WizardlyFriend said:
unfortunately you'd have to analyze all of the atoms in the entire existance, not just this universe but beyond as well.

as far as waht is our purpose. that is an issue more puzzling than this. what is the meaning of life? it is said that we are simply an amusement to god. that is a valid theory some have posed. if god is all knowing, then why make us? for some sort of entertainmetn? the question "what is the meaning of life" can not be answered ever, by any human to my knowledge. unless you believe that by meditation and prayer you can reach nirvana.
There are some that say we were created because God wanted creatures in his image to have and love. I can't answer why we're here. I personally would rather not be here, but I can tell you that when it's all over we'll get our answers no matter what your belief is. I don't think we were really meant to understand as mere humans. But yes, I do think part of our existence is probably for pure entertainment purposes. I mean, there is already so much evidence that God has a sense of humor, so for all we know we are just to make Him laugh.
 

Brain Spout

Wizard No More
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#17
it is my philosophy that what i am about to say, my concluding statement, has already been written. if any of you have read slaughter house 5 (and im sure other books make mention of this). there are creatures mentioned in it called tralfodorians? anyway they, like many other creatures in the universe(according ot the fiction of one man), can see in the fourth dimension. according to these aliens, earth is the only planet with the concept of 'free will'. but yet they accept this. my point is that whether or not we know what happens, and whether or not it is pre-ordained we will continue living and hopefully we will have a life after this that will explain these things

edit: based on the good response of this thread, i am going to make another one dealing with other philosphical ideas i have pondered, but ill do it tommorow or something...
 
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#18
WizardlyFriend said:
it is my philosophy that what i am about to say, my concluding statement, has already been written. if any of you have read slaughter house 5 (and im sure other books make mention of this). there are creatures mentioned in it called tralfodorians? anyway they, like many other creatures in the universe(according ot the fiction of one man), can see in the fourth dimension. according to these aliens, earth is the only planet with the concept of 'free will'. but yet they accept this. my point is that whether or not we know what happens, and whether or not it is pre-ordained we will continue living and hopefully we will have a life after this that will explain these things

edit: based on the good response of this thread, i am going to make another one dealing with other philosphical ideas i have pondered, but ill do it tommorow or something...
Slaughter House Five was an awesome book! :thumbsup:
 

2233boys

Yes you are!
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#19
WizardlyFriend}according to you then tiger said:
LOL how do you come to that conclusion

Unforgiven said:
According to my church, everybody's born damned, unless they're born into the church. :rolleyes:

"We are all concieved and born in sin..."
My faith tells me everyone is born with a sin nature regardless if they are born into the church or not, that sin nature doesn't go away just because you are saved and ceretainly not because you attend a church... All humans sin, Minister, Pastors, Reverands, Popes, Teachers, Lawyer, Presidents, Senators, Kids, teens, Adults, Moms, Dads, Grandmas, Grandpas, all of us...

"We all fall short of the Glory of God"

JMO based on my faith.
 

RageAgainst

Chaotic Neutral
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#20
tiger_86 said:
There are some that say we were created because God wanted creatures in his image to have and love. I can't answer why we're here. I personally would rather not be here, but I can tell you that when it's all over we'll get our answers no matter what your belief is. I don't think we were really meant to understand as mere humans. But yes, I do think part of our existence is probably for pure entertainment purposes. I mean, there is already so much evidence that God has a sense of humor, so for all we know we are just to make Him laugh.
God has a sense of humor? Give me a break. How about when you die, you die? That's right, your brain stops working, your body gets eaten by worms, there is no heaven or anything at all. Heaven is pure superstition. I know it's hard to accept for some people, but I'm 99.9999% sure there's nothing after death. Of course I don't have the pretention of holding the absolute truth, hence the 99.9999% instead of 100%.