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Headlines Saddams trial

RetArt

A Rampant Vagitarian
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As you all must know, Saddam Husseis trial has started in Iraq. Started and delayed.

The trial is illegal. The crime scene investigation is done by the US, the court is appointed by the US, the court-set is built by the US, the court is founded by the US. Everything is US. You call this a free trial? It should be in Haag, but that would need US´s approval.

The investigation is set from the end of the 1960s to 2003, and only conserns iraqis. This leaves the coalition unharmed, eventhough it is as guilty. France, US, UK and all the allies Iraq had during these horrid acts are not even mentioned in a subtitle. Not a word regarding the illegal war,guantanamo, falluja massacre etc.

If Saddam is given the death penalty, it is against international laws. This would mean USA could be set for a trial in International court of Justice. Usa would veto that. birds would sing, flowers would blossom and the dictatorship of the us would continue.

I am not saying he is innocent and shouldnt be trialed. I just say it should be everyones right to have a fair trial.

Chomsky said that when a person is trialed by the winner of the war, there is no way tehre can be a fair trial

Here´s a link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4355992.stm
 

Fideru

Agitated Pancake
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Well, Saddam did some good things, mostly bad.
 

void

Banned - What an Asshat!
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chomsky? not like he has an agenda is it?

Chomsky himself has consistently demonstrated an inability to abide by his own standards. Among his most provocative recent demands are for American political and military leaders to be tried as war criminals. He has often couched this in terms of the failure by the United States to apply the same standards to itself as it does to its enemies.

For instance, America tried and executed the remaining World War Two leaders of Germany and Japan, but failed to try its own personnel for the “war crime” of dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. Chomsky claims the American bombing of dams during the Korean War was “a huge war crime … just like racist fanaticism” but the action was praised at home. “That’s just a couple of years after they hanged German leaders who were doing much less than that.”
The worst current example, he claims, is American support for Israel:
virtually everything that Israel is doing, meaning the United States and Israel are doing, is illegal, in fact, a war crime. And many of them they defined as “grave breaches,” that is, serious war crimes. This means that the United States and Israeli leadership should be brought to trial.​
Yet Chomsky’s moral perspective is completely one-sided. No matter how great the crimes of the regimes he has favored, such as China, Vietnam, and Cambodia under the communists, Chomsky has never demanded their leaders be captured and tried for war crimes. Instead, he has defended these regimes for many years to the best of his ability through the use of evidence he must have realized was selective, deceptive, and in some cases invented.

In fact, had Pol Pot ever been captured and tried in a Western court, Chomsky’s writings could have been cited as witness for the defense. Were the same to happen to Osama bin Laden, Chomsky’s moral rationalizations in his most recent book—“almost any crime, a crime in the street, a war, whatever it may be, there’s usually something behind it that has elements of legitimacy”—could be used to plead for a lighter sentence. This kind of two-faced morality has provided a model for the world-wide protests by left-wing opponents of the American-led coalition’s war against Iraq. The left was willing to tolerate the most hideous acts of state terrorism by the Saddam Hussein regime, but was implacable in its hostility to intervention by Western democratic governments in the interests of both their own security and the emancipation of the Iraqi people. This is hypocrisy writ large.
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/chomsky.htm
 
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void said:
chomsky? not like he has an agenda is it?
Chomsky himself has consistently demonstrated an inability to abide by his own standards. Among his most provocative recent demands are for American political and military leaders to be tried as war criminals. He has often couched this in terms of the failure by the United States to apply the same standards to itself as it does to its enemies.

For instance, America tried and executed the remaining World War Two leaders of Germany and Japan, but failed to try its own personnel for the “war crime” of dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. Chomsky claims the American bombing of dams during the Korean War was “a huge war crime … just like racist fanaticism” but the action was praised at home. “That’s just a couple of years after they hanged German leaders who were doing much less than that.”
The worst current example, he claims, is American support for Israel:

virtually everything that Israel is doing, meaning the United States and Israel are doing, is illegal, in fact, a war crime. And many of them they defined as “grave breaches,” that is, serious war crimes. This means that the United States and Israeli leadership should be brought to trial.

Yet Chomsky’s moral perspective is completely one-sided. No matter how great the crimes of the regimes he has favored, such as China, Vietnam, and Cambodia under the communists, Chomsky has never demanded their leaders be captured and tried for war crimes. Instead, he has defended these regimes for many years to the best of his ability through the use of evidence he must have realized was selective, deceptive, and in some cases invented.

In fact, had Pol Pot ever been captured and tried in a Western court, Chomsky’s writings could have been cited as witness for the defense. Were the same to happen to Osama bin Laden, Chomsky’s moral rationalizations in his most recent book—“almost any crime, a crime in the street, a war, whatever it may be, there’s usually something behind it that has elements of legitimacy”—could be used to plead for a lighter sentence. This kind of two-faced morality has provided a model for the world-wide protests by left-wing opponents of the American-led coalition’s war against Iraq. The left was willing to tolerate the most hideous acts of state terrorism by the Saddam Hussein regime, but was implacable in its hostility to intervention by Western democratic governments in the interests of both their own security and the emancipation of the Iraqi people. This is hypocrisy writ large.

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/chomsky.htm
Chomsky is correct when he states that crimes tend to have reasons behind them. And of course he is against the United States' policy on Israel, so are most rational, free-thinking persons. Who has the power in the relationship between Israel and Palestine? You cannot blame the Palestinian people for a situation that they are powerless to change.

Anyway, back on topic, Hussein was an asshat, yes, but the US is probably somewhat guilty of dispensing 'winner's justice' in this case. The entire war was illegal, and it has killed its fair share of people. The USA has, over the years, pursued international terrorism with impunity and reckless abandon, but no American president has ever been indicted for it. The entire fucking war was illegal, but no American military commander is going to end up in prison or executed for it.

Also, void, I never had you pegged as a Chomskyphobist, but I never was a great judge of internet characters.
 

void

Banned - What an Asshat!
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canadian_pov said:
Also, void, I never had you pegged as a Chomskyphobist, but I never was a great judge of internet characters.
not really against him per se.. just don't use him as source/quotes as he is so obviously one-sided.. it's like quoting bill o'reilly when discussing france..
you had me right all the time, i just find chomsky reactionary for it's own sake.. i much prefer arundhati roy..
 
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void said:
not really against him per se.. just don't use him as source/quotes as he is so obviously one-sided.. it's like quoting bill o'reilly when discussing france..
you had me right all the time, i just find chomsky reactionary for it's own sake.. i much prefer arundhati roy..
I don't know if he is one-sided, he has spoken out against international terrorism, including Osama bin Laden. His 'two-faced morality' is in suggesting that there is often a reason for terrorism, and that the invasion of Iraq killed more people than it was worth. Besides, the American position on Saddam looks something like this:

 

voiceofreason

Seeker of Truth
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There is nothing good about the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, but sorry, I can't get worked up about an illegal trail for Saddam...I'm a little more concerned about the 10,000's of dead Iraqi killed for no reason.
 

Tick

Rhymes with ...
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What exactly do you see as illegal about this trial?
The trial is being performed by the Iraqis, who were voted in, by Iraqis.
The lawyers, judges and police are Iraqi.

What is your "real" problem RetArd?

Your post shows you to be an "America Sucks" reactionary. Try to think with an open mind about this, not a reactionary, close minded, hateful one.
 

Tick

Rhymes with ...
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#9
You guys should read this.
Entertaining and educational.

http://http://www.fuckfrance.com/read.html?postid=1562168


Nothing good voiceofreason?

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 uniiversities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?!
They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that *Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that *Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the *Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.
The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
 
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#10
Tick said:
You guys should read this.
Entertaining and educational.

http://http://www.fuckfrance.com/read.html?postid=1562168


Nothing good voiceofreason?

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 uniiversities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?!
They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that *Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that *Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the *Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.
The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
Did you know that Iraq is a country in tatters? Thousands of people dead, the economy in ruins, unemployment through the proverbial roof, and the psychological impact of an occupation by a large foreign power.

Your 'facts' are all either inconsequential, or unimpressive. Besides, 'fuckfrance.com' doesn't seem like a reputable source anyway.
 

RageAgainst

Chaotic Neutral
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void have you ever read a chomsky book? just wondering. If you're gonna criticize him, read his books first!

Anyways, I find it odd that the US never did ANYTHING concerning Pinochet (who got in power with the aid of the CIA), who did far worst crimes against humanity than Hussein.
 

voiceofreason

Seeker of Truth
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Tick said:
Nothing good voiceofreason?


Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
The DoD! Why am I not surprised?

If you think invading a country and killing 1,000's of innocent people based on lies is somehow "OK", then you have some very serious problems.

Try not to be such a Tool, Tick
.
 

void

Banned - What an Asshat!
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RageAgainst said:
void have you ever read a chomsky book? just wondering. If you're gonna criticize him, read his books first!
yawnsies.. yes i have..
you may notice i tend to talk about things i know of.. you are getting me confused with someone else.
chomsky's one of those 'add-ons' that boys accumulate at college.. like anarchy or pot.
 

voiceofreason

Seeker of Truth
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canadian_pov said:
Did you know that Iraq is a country in tatters? Thousands of people dead, the economy in ruins, unemployment through the proverbial roof, and the psychological impact of an occupation by a large foreign power.

Your 'facts' are all either inconsequential, or unimpressive. Besides, 'fuckfrance.com' doesn't seem like a reputable source anyway.
You forgot to mention, we hosed our economy over it!

It's all been a beautiful dream...:D
 
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RageAgainst said:
void have you ever read a chomsky book? just wondering. If you're gonna criticize him, read his books first!

Anyways, I find it odd that the US never did ANYTHING concerning Pinochet (who got in power with the aid of the CIA), who did far worst crimes against humanity than Hussein.
Look at a more current example, such as Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan. His regime has a nasty tendency to boil people alive. The USA has never even put pressure on them for their human rights abuses.

The point is that the US does not really give a shit about democracy internationally, and almost every reason they have given for the invasion of Iraq was bullshit.

On the flip side, Saddam was a motherfucker who should, IMO, rot in a prison for the rest of his life.
 

Tick

Rhymes with ...
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If you make another personal attack in this forum I will ban you. Since you decided to be an asshole, you've lost your entire post. Read this before you make another post. ~Jung
 

RetArt

A Rampant Vagitarian
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Holy shit.

That stated, back to the issue.

Tick, you say that Iraq is doing fine, people are happy and the US is treated as a Messiah there... Well, how could have a little thing slipped your mind. Hundreds of more than well educated minds see the country as a minute away from a bloody civil war. It is good that world has one dictatorship less, but I see no point in replacing it with corporate interests from a third party. With illegal war that is. Too bad the international court of justice is so weak.

And Void.. you say Chomsky is one-sided. You obviously have not read enough of his books. Yes, he critisices the US, but he has every right to do so. He critisises the not trialling the US administration because it can not be done. For gods sake they have been once trialed and seen as quilty. That changed nothing. Veto-rights suck.
And it is a TAD hypocritic to trial saddam, is it not. When it is done by USA. I cant help but see the irony. Wonder if they will use the shipping documents of biological weapons (they were used against the kurds)as evidence? It is common knowledge saddam was put to power by CIA, and that the US also gave him every weapon he needed. That was until he misinterpreted the order from the US and invaded Kuwait.

I quoted Chomsky because if you read the quote with even minor common knowledge you´ll notice it is true. Oppressed cant have a fair trial held by the oppressor. It doesn´t mena shit, if this would have been a quote by Gore Vidal, Ronald Reagan or SpongeBob. The idea is the point.

I say the trial is a farce and should be stopped. They should trial him at Haag. But USA will never edmit to that, because then they too will sit at the bench.
 
R

RedOctober

Guest
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Tick said:
Oh Canada,

So much propoganda!

(Cut more BS crap)

You should read the Fuckfrance site I linked to.
It's funny.
It's not only Canada, but most of the world you dickhead!

And the only one spouting propaganda is you!

It's a show process, where Stalin would have licked his fingers!

It's all too fucking obvious. Saddam is a standard dictator, who came to power in the aftermath of a Anglo-American coup d'état in Iraq.
He was very keen to keep a low profile for a while.
When he saw a chance, he nationalized the oil industry again, and became very popular because of the richness and development it brought to Iraq.

Because he was a friend of the USA also, who were in a diplomatic struggle with the Ayatollah's of Iran, he supported the USA AND Russian anti-fundamentalist policy, and even invaded Iran in an 8 year war.

But the USA totally blew it! There was the Irangate affair.. remember?
Reagan had it coming.. Because the USA sold weapons to both Iraq as Iran, to take out as many Arabs as possible without America firing one single round.

That got Saddam really mad when he found out.

And that's why he invaded Kuwait, to get a revanche.

Of course Saddam Hussain was and still is a monster, just like any other dictator in the history supported by the Americans after world war 2.

Do you want a list?

Mubutu, Marcos, Shah of Perzia, Suharto, and all the other fuckers in dictatorial South America, Africa and Asia.
 

Jung

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#19
Next person to flame someone in this thread is getting banned.

Only a fool would think we're helping by continuing our occupation of Iraq. As far as Saddam's trial is concerned, I'm indifferent; if anyone is deserving of an unfair trial it's him. Besides, it's not like any court, anywhere, is going to find him not guilty.

P.S. Good morning
 

JLXC

WTF's Official Conspiracy Fanatic
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America brings hipocracy to "let them eat cake" levels. The American people seem to have a superhuman power to rationalize everything. Examples:

We put Saddam in power, we give him arms, we love the guy. He kills his people to prevent "civil war" and we turn a blind eye. THEN he threatens some oil fields and he's the anti-christ super monster who needs to be taken down. We kill over 100,000 Iraqi's with planes and missles, and ruin their entire country, we blockade medicine and food into Iraq. 10's of thousands starve and die from simple diseases. THEN we offer to rebuild them and make them better? THEN 9/11.

So we make Osama, we train him, we train his terrorists, we give him arms, to stop the Russians in Afghanistan. So once the Russians lose, and this guy Osama keeps on doing what he always did, and he finds someone else to focus his rage on. He turns against his creators and NOW he's the anti-christ monster who needs to be hunted down like a dog and killed. Plus we blew up a lot of his country in spite, even though much of the govt there hated the turd.

So after many American companies made billions rebuilding Iraq, we go in and fucking bomb them back to the stone age again. We have to stop the mad dictator, because people in the govt were still pissed from the 1st war. Plus now Haliburton stands to make billions rebuilding Iraq AGAIN. So now America wants to be sure Saddam is tried for the monster he was, while ignoring any responsibility for their own actions, or that we killed as many Iraqi as he ever did, and that we did it all for the greed of a few White Men.

People rationalize all this away in America. If you simply state it like I did above they always make excuses and talk about how bad everyone else is. Americans love to not take responsibility for their actions.



In the above Americans doesn't have to refer to every single American, there are many exceptions, I just wish some of those exceptions could make it into an American office and make a difference. I also wish for world peace, and I don't see either happening soon.