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Headlines The Bush Administration & Imperialism

jamesp

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#1
A few days ago I watched a documentary called Hijacking Catastrophe. Now I, like everyone else, have seen Farenheit 9/11 but this one gave me a whole new prespective on the the war in Iraq. In the documentary the invasion and occupation of Irag is compared to Imperialism. Showing that the current presidential administration is concerned with one thing, what lies beneath the sands of the middle east. The parallels drawn about the Bush administration and its underhanded use of manifest destiny and imperialism. So, ask yourslef, is the United States the new Roman empire? Destined to fall to pieces?
 
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#2
Comparisons can be made between the United States and the Roman Empire, but Imperialism isn't the most convincing tie, especially when you're trying to correlate America's future with the reasons the Roman Empire eventually failed. It really has more to do with America destroying itself from the inside.

You also have to be very objective when watching any 'documentary' either pro or con for GWB, the Administration, or The War. Even Farenheit 9/11 was somewhat driven by personal dislike rather than the 'quest for truth'. Plenty has come out highlighting how Farenheit edited scenes to fit it's message, just like any other film promoting one thing or another. It's all subject to the views of the people making the film (or article, or book, or tv show, or billboard, or whatever). I could probably, with minimal effort, either find or create a documentary linking Nelson Mandela with the Prophesies of the Antichrist and the aggression of the Klingon Empire in episode 14 of Star Trek. (I made episode 14 up, so don't blast me if you're that one rabid Star Trek fan).
 

jamesp

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#3
FlipTheState said:
Comparisons can be made between the United States and the Roman Empire, but Imperialism isn't the most convincing tie, especially when you're trying to correlate America's future with the reasons the Roman Empire eventually failed. It really has more to do with America destroying itself from the inside.
I don't know about that. The Roman Empire ultimately collapsed because it became too big to maintain. Their view of Imperialism and acting on it is what ultimately led to their downfall. The attentions of the government are already being rumored and even alluded to be on one of the Koreas, Taiwan?, China, Syria? I mean come on, you can't get more Imperialistic than that? If there are any actions like what happened to Iraq and Afghanistan it seems almost set in stone that it is just a matter of time before the disintigration of the United States as a single nation.
 

gurlgonewild

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#4
jamesp said:
The attentions of the government are already being rumored and even alluded to be on one of the Koreas, Taiwan?, China, Syria?
w/ the war in iraq going poorly, never really having won an "asiatic/oriental" war w/o dropping atom bombs, and the lackluster state of our economy i believe the patience of americans are wearing thin w/ this administration. or at least i would hope in this climate, if the average citizen was asked whether we'd support war w/ another country, the country would be highly suspicious and far less likely to support GWB. it's not like prior administrations haven't lied, cheated, or stole their way- but it is, in my op, blatantly clear the majority now realizes this administration has proven their motives cannot be taken at face value and require due dilligence.

what this administration has created and imposed upon the american citizen, can be likened to conducting psychological warfare onto an unsuspecting public. you may think i am being anti-gov't, anti-GWB, plain paranoid or am exaggerating, but i'm not. the only reason why people today, who are much more sophisticated than those of past generations have not yet reached a similar conclusion is b/c of technology and globalization. the game has gotten huge: gov'ts are now coordinating their actions as never before, the overwhelming speed at which information and disinformation can be spread is too much, the picture is so huge...most people just cannot grasp what is occuring in real time or fully ever.

am i full of shit? take for instance one example, the UK bombings. see how lovingly and continuously the american news media feeds us coverage of every successful analysis and capture from surveillance video of the terror suspects? how useful, easily, and quickly they are apprehended...and other suspects rounded up b/c of the surveillance? how much would you like to bet this is the next great agenda before congress and GWB? of course, it is going to be sold to us as an advancement in the gov'ts effort to secure our homeland but the general public will already be convinced having watched the propoganda on tv for months or years beforehand.

this is just one example but many do exist both here and elsewhere in western civilization. if you ask me, western civilization has been the roman empire for centuries now.
 

jamesp

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#5
man, the current administration utilizes pyscological warfare extensively. take for instance the terror warnings, they're fucking color coded for gods sake! They have taken a threat that has always been there and created a whole new type of fear inducing system to scream about the lack of safety in our small towns and cities. They imply that the only way to secure our safety and security we as a country have to plcae all of our faith in one administration like never before. Our path to safety is indeed paved with daggers. Which leads back to the current administration = imperialism thought.
 

RetArt

A Rampant Vagitarian
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#6
Constant artificial fear makes people swallow lies more fluently.
I wouldn´t say America is like Rome, I see it more like the Soviet Union or the Swedish Empire.
I too think that USA will destroy itself. People are already divided. You dont have to be quite the Nostradamus to see possible civil war. all it needs is one too big of a lie or one nudge to get the ball rolling... It just might be the US people are too entertained to revolution :)
 
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#7
jamesp said:
I don't know about that. The Roman Empire ultimately collapsed because it became too big to maintain. Their view of Imperialism and acting on it is what ultimately led to their downfall. The attentions of the government are already being rumored and even alluded to be on one of the Koreas, Taiwan?, China, Syria? I mean come on, you can't get more Imperialistic than that? If there are any actions like what happened to Iraq and Afghanistan it seems almost set in stone that it is just a matter of time before the disintigration of the United States as a single nation.
The Roman Empire destroyed itself from the inside. It could possibly have taken over the entire world and maintained itself at the rate it was going, but there was unrest within the government and betrayal which lead to bickering amongst themselves, thus leading to their fall (in a nutshell). America is following step for step. An outside force will not be able to take us down unless we are divided amongst ourselves (which is slowing but surely happening).
 

jamesp

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#8
tiger_86 said:
The Roman Empire destroyed itself from the inside. It could possibly have taken over the entire world and maintained itself at the rate it was going, but there was unrest within the government and betrayal which lead to bickering amongst themselves, thus leading to their fall (in a nutshell). America is following step for step. An outside force will not be able to take us down unless we are divided amongst ourselves (which is slowing but surely happening).
Exactly.
 

jamesp

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#10
No, you tried to argue that I was wrong, that the Roman Empire dissolved from the inside out becasue of something other than Imperialism, he states them together, cause and effect.
 
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#11
jamesp said:
No, you tried to argue that I was wrong, that the Roman Empire dissolved from the inside out becasue of something other than Imperialism, he states them together, cause and effect.
No, but ok. (Read it again)
I argued that your attempt to tie in Imperialism as the reason the Roman Empire failed to the future demise of America was not perhaps the best way to go about it. America's take on 'Imperialism' isn't going to cause it to fail, nor did Imperialism in and of itself cause Rome to fall. Besides, America isn't trying to 'Rule the World', per se. Rome was corrupt, rotting from the inside out, which is what eventually led to it's demise. Imperialism neither caused this corruption nor caused the Empire to fail. Was it a factor? Yes, but only marginally. It's not a cause-effect relationship.
Read carefully and tiger_86 basically says the same thing.
 

jamesp

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#12
Meh, im too lazy to go back through all that typing....ill just take your word for it.
 
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RedOctober

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#13
Hmmm...

Don't want to be grumpy again, but America isn't on an imperial tour.
Nowhere near to it.
Americans don't adapt to foreign cultures. The space they occupy is going to be American, with Coca Cola and McDonalds.

The Roman Empire easily took over foreign lands, because they didn't bother the local culture and politics. As long as they payed taxes, and produced goods and soldiers.

The Roman Empire didn't really fall at all, it just faded away.
The soldiers went back home, because nobody payed them anymore.
Entire tribes followed them in the direction of Rome, and so some of the more powerful tribes seized the power from the Romans. Like the Francs.
Charlemagne was emperor in the Roman tradition.

America isn't keen on paying war for keeps.
They just need the oil.
So why should they bother to invest in a large army to really keep Iraq under full control? Much too expensive.
It is much too expensive now already!

There isn't going to be a Pax Americana.
 
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#14
RedOctober said:
Hmmm...

Don't want to be grumpy again, but America isn't on an imperial tour.
Nowhere near to it.
Come live here and see and hear what we see and hear, then you'll see why we say what we do.
 
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RedOctober

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#15
tiger_86 said:
Come live here and see and hear what we see and hear, then you'll see why we say what we do.
Well, I just wanted to explain why the word "imperialism" doesn't fit the "policy" of the Bush administration.

Imperialism would be when the locals would be motivated to join in the "American Dream".. :D
The last time we saw that happen was in Japan and Germany after they lost the war..
 
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#16
RedOctober said:
Well, I just wanted to explain why the word "imperialism" doesn't fit the "policy" of the Bush administration.

Imperialism would be when the locals would be motivated to join in the "American Dream".. :D
The last time we saw that happen was in Japan and Germany after they lost the war..
Ah, but we are being motivated to join the "American Dream," it's just that half of us are too lazy to be motivated and thus end up seeing through the charade.
 
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#17
jamesp said:
I don't know about that. The Roman Empire ultimately collapsed because it became too big to maintain. Their view of Imperialism and acting on it is what ultimately led to their downfall. The attentions of the government are already being rumored and even alluded to be on one of the Koreas, Taiwan?, China, Syria? I mean come on, you can't get more Imperialistic than that? If there are any actions like what happened to Iraq and Afghanistan it seems almost set in stone that it is just a matter of time before the disintigration of the United States as a single nation.
The difference is that the Roman's tried to directly control all of their lands through military force. The US uses economic and cultural imperialism to maintain it's hold on other nations. It fosters a love for the conqueror because we're "giving" them "culture". I personally think the US will fail because our culture is stagnating and becoming wholly self-referential. The cycle in which we become nostaligic for the old days is speeding up and we'll probably be regurgitating 90's culture in a matter of years.
 

gurlgonewild

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#18
i do not believe the usa will "fail", i believe we will experience a similar growth cycle as europe has... from birth, to old age, to reincarnation. i cannot even begin to imagine what the consequences of a complete failure of the usa would mean to everyone worldwide- the sufferage, the devastation, the anarchy...!

although i may be in disagreement w/ the politics of the usa gov't sometimes, the usa's continuation is essential. our contributions may be controversial, wrong, or otherwise callus but it is nothing in comparison to how it would be if we ceased to exist.
 
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#19
gurlgonewild said:
i do not believe the usa will "fail", i believe we will experience a similar growth cycle as europe has... from birth, to old age, to reincarnation. i cannot even begin to imagine what the consequences of a complete failure of the usa would mean to everyone worldwide- the sufferage, the devastation, the anarchy...!

although i may be in disagreement w/ the politics of the usa gov't sometimes, the usa's continuation is essential. our contributions may be controversial, wrong, or otherwise callus but it is nothing in comparison to how it would be if we ceased to exist.
I disagree. Europe is well on its way to rivaling the United States in economic and political power. The Euro is already worth more than the U.S. dollar, and if they actually unify behind a constitution of the European Union they can become a force to be reckoned with. I think it is stupid (not saying you, I'm saying the idea that has been put into people's heads by the government and media) to think that the world cannot survive without the U.S. If Europe continues on its current path they will be able to take the place of the United States as a world leader per se.
 
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RedOctober

Guest
#20
tiger_86 said:
I disagree. Europe is well on its way to rivaling the United States in economic and political power. The Euro is already worth more than the U.S. dollar, and if they actually unify behind a constitution of the European Union they can become a force to be reckoned with. I think it is stupid (not saying you, I'm saying the idea that has been put into people's heads by the government and media) to think that the world cannot survive without the U.S. If Europe continues on its current path they will be able to take the place of the United States as a world leader per se.
Hmmm... But the real point is, the Europeans don't want that.
The European constitution is down the drain.

The worth of the Euro vs the Dollar is pure speculation.
In fact the Dollar is worthless, but it will take some time untill there will be another crash. America will get into total bankrupcy, it's only a matter of time.
Bush only speeded that up a little..

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/