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Headlines The case for war in Iraq; college+ educated only

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The case for war in Iraq

I was reading the other thread in great debate and was surprised to see how many inaccurisms were floating around. I was going to just reply to the topic but the dumbshits had already bumped my post to page eight whilst accomplishing nothing. Below is the reprinted economist argument:


Mr Bush stands accused of mucking up not only iraq but also the planet itself... This view of the world, which turns Bush and Blair into the real 'axis of evil' gains force with each indignant repetition. What makes it spread?

It is fed by three over-glib assumptions. The first might be called the illusion of prelapsarian innocence. This holds that Bush and his British accmoplice ar ethe wanton wreckers of a sytem of international order, with the UN at its apex, which up until the Iraq war more or less succeeded in keeping the world peaceful. In reality, this fabled sytem never existed. >The international roder of the 1990s and beyond consisted of the usual disorder. The UN's record during that decade included both faiures to intervene when it should have (to stop genocide in Rwanada, for example) and interventions taht failed (srebrenica, Somalia). There was, of course, the occasional success as well, but like the war in Iraq some of these, such as NATO's American-led rescue of Kosvo's Muslims, were ad hoc actions undertaken without the express permission (until after it was over) of the Security Council.

Iraq is in itself a perfect refutation ifo the idea that the world was in apple-pie order before Mr Bush and Mr blair upturned it. THe arguments for and aginst the war are familiar. Repeating them is becoming tedious. But one point on which everyone should be clear is that Iraq was a problem taht needed solving, not one dreamt up for America's convenience.

After Kuwait war of 1991, nothing seemed capable of making saddam honour the terms of the ceasefire he signed. The security council passed resolutions, whhich he ignored, and maintained sanctions, which made Iraqis poor and hungry. Thi sis the abject stat eof affairs which critics of the war now refer to as 'containment working'. Laying down the law while failing to enforce it is no way tou phold order, but that is how things stood before America and Britain acted (almost) alone, and how they might stil stand had france and the rest of the permanent five managed to stop them. Though the rest hoped more time, inspectors and last cahnces could do the business bloodlessly, it was a hope confoundd by preivous experience. At the least, those who deem the war a mistake should admit that, without one, iraq would probably still be under the heel of its dictator.

Which leads to the second lib assumption, that the war has made things worse for Iraqis than they were before. That is presumably why London's protsters (reference to the january 400,000 march down Kingsway) devised a celver wheeze to topple an effigy of Mr Bush, in parody of the topling of saddam's statue on the day baghdad fell. This foolish notion belittles iraq's suffering under the idctator. INdeed, to too many of th war's critics, the relief of Arab sufering seems to matter a good deal less than the supposed venality of America's motives. Iraqis are, to say the least, not natural admiresr of Mr Bush. But most are pleased that the superpower got rid of their oppressor.

None of this is to deny that America has made mistakes. IT has found the occupation harder than expected, and the guerilla resitsance more painful. That is proably why Bush has now decided to transfer power next summer to a provisional government, instead of sticking with the more methodical democracy-building programme he originalloy envisioned...

When people complain that America is behaving as a global policeman, their real gripe is often just the opposite. It is just fine when America acts the policeman, using its muscle to enforce the law under orders from te security council.

*next from a different economist*

The Iraq war was not as controversial as the Suez war of 1956 which felled ab ritish prime minister, or vietnam, which traumatised a generation. yet the war divided both the world powers and the world opinion. IT claimed its firs tpolicial victim outside iraq, when jose maria aznar, spain's prime minister who supported america's invasion and occupatoin, lost the election held alst weekend, three days after bombs in madrid killed 200 people. It mayy yet go on to claim the scalps of George Bush and Tony Blair, the war's chief architects. And of course, it ahs changed the middle east for ever. WAS IT WORTH IT?

History, as usual, is reserving judgement. The war's cirtics are not. This war, they say was illegal (netiehr self-defence nor authorised by the UN security council); unnecessary (sadadm seems nomt, after all, to have had weapons of mass destruction); and left Iraq worse off than before (his iraq was at least not being torn apart by civil war). On top of this it drove a wewdge between america nad much of europe, added to muslim suspicions of the west, and distracted attention from more urgent problems, such as the conflict in palestine and the hunt for osama bin laden.

Some of these claims are fated to remain matters of opinion. Was the war legal? Britain and the US claim that the series of security council resolutions violated by iraq, fortified by a final one threatening 'sreious consequences' for non-compliance, permitted the resort to force. Was it necessary? The non-discovery of WMD has embarassed the war's defender. But after invading Kuwait, Saddam was not only under orders to dispose of WMD: he had also to prove he had done so. His failure to offer proof allowed the inference tha the had something ot hide.

Might prolonged inspections have provided a definitive all-clear ?Maybe, but on past Iraqi form that might well have prompted another game of 'cheat and retreat'. As to whether a WMD armed saddam would anyway have proved a danger to the region or beyond, nobody - merficully - will now have to find out.

However, not all of the much debated quesitons about the wisdom of the war turn on imponderables. ON some - such as the war's impact of the wellbeing of iraqis and the cosnequnces for the middle east - the facts have their say, even if they do not all poin tin the same direction.

For example, some of the war's ciritic spredited that it would unleash mayhem throughout the region, driving enraged Muslims into the arms of Al Qaeda and toplling friendly regimes like ninepins. Wrong: a rash of furious demonstrations struck arab capitals during the war, and islamist terrorism has increased sharply in Saudi Arabia and Morocco over the past year, but so far all regimes have survived.

Indeed, far from destablising regims friendly to the US, the war may have had a salutary impact on unfriendly ones. Having lost an ally in Iraq and facing imminent American sanctions, Syria's Bashar Assad is striving to mend relations with the West, not least by offering a resumption of peace talks with Israel. The disarmament plans of Libyas Muammar Qaddafi may predate the war, but he has now not only dismantled secret weapons programmes but shipped their parts to America. The Iranians reacted calmly to the removal of Saddam. They did not approve of it, but they did not approve of him. And since the war they have made a show of being more open about their own nuclear activities.
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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#2
LOL College+educated!! Ok..where did you go to college Mexico?
 

gumercules

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#3
sadly nobody is going to reply to this, unless they're breaking the college + educated rules...

Broken - you're one of the few people here i can see to be reasonably intelligent. don't you have any constructive comments?

the gist of the articles seems to be that we may never know the complete ramifications, legalities, or proprieties of our actions in iraq, but it's certainly not as bad as hardline opponents to the war are making it out to be - that's a stance i can agree with.
 

ron

Buster of Asses
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#4
The case for war in Iraq; college+ educated only?

Since when does that give one special insight into the workings of the world?
 

The_DEAL

FAILING @FAILING!
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#5
gumercules said:
sadly nobody is going to reply to this, unless they're breaking the college + educated rules...

Broken - you're one of the few people here i can see to be reasonably intelligent. don't you have any constructive comments?

the gist of the articles seems to be that we may never know the complete ramifications, legalities, or proprieties of our actions in iraq, but it's certainly not as bad as hardline opponents to the war are making it out to be - that's a stance i can agree with.
where the fuck is ron he needs to break this down im so confused
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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#6
gumercules said:
sadly nobody is going to reply to this, unless they're breaking the college + educated rules...

Broken - you're one of the few people here i can see to be reasonably intelligent. don't you have any constructive comments?

the gist of the articles seems to be that we may never know the complete ramifications, legalities, or proprieties of our actions in iraq, but it's certainly not as bad as hardline opponents to the war are making it out to be - that's a stance i can agree with.
I read it. I replied @ 4:45 am. I found it boring to be completely honest. My eyes were not opened, no broadened horizons. I am not saying that there are not some great points in the article, but really didn't move me. If it would have I still would have made fun of the "College+educated only", but I would have added my thoughts. Since you asked in such an honorable manner I think I will make a constructive comment.

Which leads to the second lib assumption, that the war has made things worse for Iraqis than they were before.
This statement sums the article up. War usually doesn't make things better when it's on your soil. At least not during the melee. The whole story is duh!! Sorry.
 

GottaHurt

Sexual Deviant
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Broken said:
I read it. I replied @ 4:45 am. I found it boring to be completely honest. My eyes were not opened, no broadened horizons. I am not saying that there are not some great points in the article, but really didn't move me. If it would have I still would have made fun of the "College+educated only", but I would have added my thoughts. Since you asked in such an honorable manner I think I will make a constructive comment.


This statement sums the article up. War usually doesn't make things better when it's on your soil. At least not during the melee. The whole story is duh!! Sorry.
Fuckin' eh, good thing I cancelled my vacation to Hawaii for this response.
But it was honorable, and I love you man :cool:
 

ron

Buster of Asses
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#8
Wow, where to begin?

denigrated said:
I was reading the other thread in great debate and was surprised to see how many inaccurisms were floating around.
Such as?

You might have saved us all a lot of trouble by simply posting the link and then your own analysis of the article.

Let me sum up.

There is no "system of international order" to wreck. The UN (Usually Nothing; United Nations) is not a governing body. Each individual nation is a sovereign entity unto itself, free to govern in any manner it pleases, free to accept or deny trade proposals, free to accept or deny treaties.

The UN has repeatedly failed to solve matters when called upon to do so militarily. Only when sovereign nations, acting alone or in concert, have become involved have conflicts been resolved successfully. The degree of success is largely a matter of individual events and history.

Every nation is also free to exercise its own discretion in attempting to manage affairs around the world. This often leads to espionage, economic sanctions, and war. It has been the state of affairs throughout human history.

The bottom line is this: regardless of opinions now, history will be the final judge of actions during any point in time. During any point in time, there have been and will be supporters and protesters of armed conflict, none of whom will reserve judgement during the conflict. If the Nazis had won WWII, history would call the Allied Forces villains.

History is written by the victors.
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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GottaHurt said:
Fuckin' eh, good thing I cancelled my vacation to Hawaii for this response.
But it was honorable, and I love you man :cool:
Lost me.. I have no idea what you are saying.
 

_Kitana_

Angel of Death
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#11
Do you want to know my thoughts on this

probally not

I read it... found it to be another bulshit thing... with a few points that are somewhat weak...

blahblahblah
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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#12
_Kitana_ said:
Do you want to know my thoughts on this

probally not

I read it... found it to be another bulshit thing... with a few points that are somewhat weak...

blahblahblah
Now Now,, that's not constructive.
 

_Kitana_

Angel of Death
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#13
you don't pay me to be constructive lol
 

gumercules

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#16
Broken said:
I am doing good. I call it happy.
but theoretically, if every time you were happy it made me sad, then "we" could never be happy at the same time. at the risk of waxing philosophical i'm stopping now.
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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#17
gumercules said:
but theoretically, if every time you were happy it made me sad, then "we" could never be happy at the same time. at the risk of waxing philosophical i'm stopping now.
Is that Sod with a dictionary?
 
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#18
I was going to post something fantastic here, but then I remembered that I only went to college, and that I'm not truly sure if I'm educated.
 

GottaHurt

Sexual Deviant
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#19
The sign on the door said "Free Beer" I didn't think it was going to be a Club Pocket Protector Meeting.
 

Broken

Member smoked too much weed!
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#20
GottaHurt said:
The sign on the door said "Free Beer" I didn't think it was going to be a Club Pocket Protector Meeting.
Oh here we go again...