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Headlines The Shooting in Tal Afar

Jung

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#1
How much is freedom worth?

http://www.truthout.org/fyi/index.php?y=2005&m=1&d=21
"There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom."

"America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal, instead, is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom and make their own way."

"Eventually the call of freedom comes to every mind and every soul. We do not accept the existence of permanent tyranny because we do not accept the possibility of permanent slavery. Liberty will come to those who love it."

- George W. Bush, 01/20/05

US soldiers in Iraq approach a car after opening fire when it failed to stop at a checkpoint. Despite warning shots it continued to drive towards their dusk patrol in Tal Afar on 18 January...

Inside the car were an Iraqi family of seven. The mother and father were killed but their five children in the backseat survived, one with a non-life threatening wound.



As the children get out of the car one of them screams, her hands covered in blood...



others cry or just stand bewildered.

... more at the link above.
 

_Kitana_

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This is UNFAIR.

How are they suppose to know its a family that won't stop or a car bomb? Are they just suppose to let everybody drive up to their check point? Pray to god its not a bomb? They fired warning shots.

They did everything right. What do you think the physiological effects are going to be on those soldiers. HUh? I am sure they don't like killing and i am 100% sure they are not cold blooded killers, I am sure they didn't want to fire into that car. I am sure they had to weigh life and death as a car slowly approached, weighing the safety of themselves and the other troops. This is what got 8 marines killed and possibly my husband is a vehicle that wouldn’t stop and got to close on a field mission.

NOW YOU CAN TAKE THIS CRAP, AND ANYONE ELSE WHO SITTING THERE NOT PLACED IN THIS SITUATION AND JUDGING IT, AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS. This is the crap that makes me believe you were never in the military from the start.
 

Jung

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#3
"Winning hearts and minds!"


Sorry, I'm in a hurry right now. I'll give you a proper reply when I return.
 

ChilianFuckFace

Banned - What an Asshat!
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_Kitana_ said:
This is UNFAIR.

How are they suppose to know its a family that won't stop or a car bomb? Are they just suppose to let everybody drive up to their check point? Pray to god its not a bomb? They fired warning shots.

They did everything right. What do you think the physiological effects are going to be on those soldiers. HUh? I am sure they don't like killing and i am 100% sure they are not cold blooded killers, I am sure they didn't want to fire into that car. I am sure they had to weigh life and death as a car slowly approached, weighing the safety of themselves and the other troops. This is what got 8 marines killed and possibly my husband is a vehicle that wouldn’t stop and got to close on a field mission.

NOW YOU CAN TAKE THIS CRAP, AND ANYONE ELSE WHO SITTING THERE NOT PLACED IN THIS SITUATION AND JUDGING IT, AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS. This is the crap that makes me believe you were never in the military from the start.
If we were not over there. Our soldiers wouldn't have to make this type of decission.

Also, you can not be so close minded! If was one of those kids, I would promise on my God that I will revenge the death of my parents. This means more terrorims. You can not blame them.

I hate you so much right now! :mad:
 

_Kitana_

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QUOTE=junglizm]"Winning hearts and minds!"


Sorry, I'm in a hurry right now. I'll give you a proper reply when I return.[/QUOTE]


No There is no proper reply to this Jung. This is utter bullshit in the highest quality and extremely low and cheap shot even for you. This is playing on the liberal hearts and sympathy of people and it is WRONG. Yeah it sad. No I don’t like seeing children loose their mother and father, I don’t like seeing soldier die either. I don’t like the fact that my husband is over there.

You who link the death of soldiers then link something like this. You I don’t even have words for the lack of dignity you have just displayed. No its not pretty in Iraq, no Jesse shown me things I wish I could forget and has told me things I NEVER WANTED TO HEAR and I sure the fuck don’t think he wanted to see it.

So what your hope by showing these pictures? To make American soldier’s look like senseless killers. To disrespect all your brothers and sisters you claimed to server with. Or is it because you can not argue your side with out a shock factor? FUCK THAT…. Those people were placed in a fucking hellish position and they made the right choice on the wrong car, that could of very easly been a bomb. The Iraqi mother and father’s who did not stop… are at fault. Next subject cause this is not even worth debating with you.

ChilianFuckFace said:
If we were not over there. Our soldiers wouldn't have to make this type of decission.

Also, you can not be so close minded! If was one of those kids, I would promise on my God that I will revenge the death of my parents. This means more terrorims. You can not blame them.

I hate you so much right now! :mad:
No maybe you should open your mind to the fact WE ARE OVER THERE and those soldiers have no choice but to defend themselves. Shit like this happens and no one likes it, but it tuff all over.

No one admits that the Iraqi mother and father were in the wrong. Who approaches a check point and when ordered to stop, they don't? They fired warning shots and everything else? Yeah... They put their own children at risk and gave a total disregards for their own children’s life.

good point to argue.

~ By the way upon reading this the capitation of the picture says it a check point but that article says it is a foot patrol... so which is it? Next time lets link to creditable new sources huh? One that can clearly tell the different between a foot patrol and a check point. ~
 

Captain 151

Seeped in a dry Merlot
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#6
Regardless of who is responsible in this mess... that second picture is haunting.
 

Jung

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#7
_Kitana_ said:
This is UNFAIR.
Why? Because I'm making light of things that are happening over there? Should these stories be suppressed, just because they don't show "the good" things that come from war?

If we didn't invade their country, none of this would happen. It's a horrible thing that these children lost both of their parents... killed right in front of their eyes. So fucking sorry if you're offended. I couldn't care less.

Sorry you can't get past your staunch and blind support for this war, maybe some day you'll realize that war isn't "good" and "good things" don't come from it.

How are they suppose to know its a family that won't stop or a car bomb? Are they just suppose to let everybody drive up to their check point? Pray to god its not a bomb? They fired warning shots.
Well holy shit! OMG, this family didn't stop for a road block that foreign invaders set up under their imposed authority. The U.S. are the rulers of the world, how dare they not bow before us? They should all die.

Maybe the family kept driving after the gun shots, because hearing gun fire isn't exactly an odd occurrence right now. Perhaps they weren't aware that they were "warning" shots. I mean there is a war going on over there. Hmm... Perhaps they just feared their invaders. I mean, low and behold they don't bow down to us on their soil.
They did everything right.
See that's where your closed mind comes in; I never said the soldiers did anything wrong. I posted this because it's a horrible incident. I posted it to outline the horrible things that come from war... you're adding your twist to yet another thread. Assuming the worst.
What do you think the physiological effects are going to be on those soldiers. HUh?
What do you think is going through those children's minds? Huh? Oh, I forgot, they're not American's, they're the enemy... who gives a fuck about their feelings.
I am sure they don't like killing and i am 100% sure they are not cold blooded killers, I am sure they didn't want to fire into that car. I am sure they had to weigh life and death as a car slowly approached, weighing the safety of themselves and the other troops. This is what got 8 marines killed and possibly my husband is a vehicle that wouldn’t stop and got to close on a field mission.
Ok, thanks for letting me know. That wasn't already blatantly obvious. Once again, you've added incite that only Kitana can add...

Just curious, did the OP say anything about soldiers being murders, or anything similar? No, I didn't think so, thanks for the retarded spin.
NOW YOU CAN TAKE THIS CRAP, AND ANYONE ELSE WHO SITTING THERE NOT PLACED IN THIS SITUATION AND JUDGING IT, AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.
CAPSLOCK...

Now you can take your blind, staunch support and hatred for any and all things anti-war and stick them up your ass. Btw, aren't you judging this very incident you're yelling at us for? Nice job.
This is the crap that makes me believe you were never in the military from the start.
This is the crap makes me believe you were never in school.

Common sense would dictate that simply being in the military doesn't force you into any certain way of thinking. That notion is close minded, naive and absurd.

MY HUSBAND IS IN THE MILITARY AND IF YOU DON'T THINK LIKE HIM YOU'VE PROBABLY NEVER BEEN IN THE MILITARY OR YOU WERE JUST A SHITTY SOLDIER. ALL GOOD SOLDIERS AND AMERICANS THINK LIKE US.

CAPSLOCK.
_Kitana_ said:
Hahaha

No There is no proper reply to this Jung.
Well, you're welcome to your opinion. It only goes to show your closemindedness and intolerance of other people's views though. It also makes you look silly, because your own "logic" defeats you. Your replies must be just as worthless and "wrong" and mine, because "There is no proper reply to this."

I won't even dignify the rest of that with a reply. I've already wasted enough time replying to you.
 

ferengi

Yay fire!
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#8
It's sad that these children's parents had to die... and sad that the situation in Iraq is so unstable that these soldiers felt the need to open fire on them... this whole Iraq deal is just one big mess...
Why can't everyone just peacefully co-exist? :(
 

Jung

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#9
~ By the way upon reading this the capitation of the picture says it a check point but that article says it is a foot patrol... so which is it? Next time lets link to creditable new sources huh? One that can clearly tell the different between a foot patrol and a check point. ~
Ok, lets dispute a minor mistake. I mean, you must really be at a loss to explain the many ways this is supposedly wrong. I linked to a blog... I thought it would be obvious that the blog owner was both posting a news story and commenting on it. I guess that wasn't obvious to you though. You could've Googled if you wanted a more "credible" source.

Here are your news links though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

Oh, and btw, it wasn't a "check point" according to: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wocheck0120,0,532599.story?coll=ny-world-big-pix
A routine foot patrol -- a dozen or so men from a platoon, carefully walking the dusky streets of Tal Afar just after sundown.

Here's a related blog I found, while searching CNN. I agree with what this person said 100%.

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/38769
I don't know what will become of the children, but it seems that situations like these happen once a week in Iraq. A car doesn't stop or slowdown when it approaches a checkpoint and gets fired upon. This is just one of the first times that there's been such graphic photos of the aftermath. It's a horrible situation and the army should try to do more to make it stop. Getting Iraq military or civiliians to yell at the cars that don't stop should be mandatory at all checkpoints.
 

_Kitana_

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I never said they didn't happen and I never said they didn't happen often. I am telling you your sitting over sweating your ass off in the middle of fucking IRAQ, you want to get home to your wife, family and life.

A car pulls up at a check point. YOU TELL THEM TO STOP. THEY DON'T.... THEY keep driving up...

Your looking at the other person, you fire a warning shot. yelling and telling them to stop. They don't stop.

So now is this a confused person or someone wanting to kill more life?

You have a choice to make and you have little time to make it in. Life is going to be lost. Inoccent or not. Those Iraqi are at fault. SORRY. They chose not to stop, they chose to put their kids life at danger.

Nothing you can say or run me down can debate these fact. You did accuse the soldiers of doing something wrong. You said they don't stop them on foot patrols and it all depends on the situation.



~Angel
 

Jung

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#11
_Kitana_ said:
You have a choice to make and you have little time to make it in. Life is going to be lost. Inoccent or not. Those Iraqi are at fault. SORRY. They chose not to stop, they chose to put their kids life at danger.
The U.S. soldiers (foreign invaders) were on a foot patrol, not a check point. I'm pretty sure they didn't "ask" the family to stop, as you said. It's pretty clear that they weren't able to communicate as much to them. (or at least their "communication" was ineffective.)

So basically, an Iraqi family is driving along in their own country, and these foreign invaders attempt to stop them; for what ever reason they don't stop. Now these invaders, who have been bombing these people's country, open fire killing everyone but the children. Yeah, I'd say it's definitely the fault of the Iraqis. How dare they ignore U.S. soldiers? How dare they drive along at night in their own country. We're clearly THE authority in IRAQ. They've definitely had ample time to learn that the U.S. is in control, and they should follow all orders and commands. :rolleyes:

This obviously happens enough that the U.S. could do something about it. Like the quote I posted above stated, they could AT LEAST post Iraqi soldiers with the Americans. I can only imagine the fear these Iraqis feel when encountering U.S. soldiers. How do you know they aren't scared that they'll be killed, for no reason? Maybe it's their instinct to keep driving... you know, out of fear.
Nothing you can say or run me down can debate these fact.
The only facts are that it happened, the rest is just your opinion. Why can't you understand that?
You did accuse the soldiers of doing something wrong.
Did you read my post? I said in the Original Post. I never said that though; all I've said was that I think this could've been avoided and I"m definitely NOT blaming that Iraqi family for this.

I'm not directly blaming those soldiers either, I'm sure they were just doing their job. Of course, I'm certain that actions could be taken to prevent this from happening. Blame should be placed on the "higher ups" who are doing nothing to prevent these senseless killings.

Then again, if we weren't in this quagmire in Iraq, fighting for greed, none of this would've ever happened.
You said they don't stop them on foot patrols and it all depends on the situation.
Did you even read my post? I never said that, sorry.
 

Jung

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#13
_Kitana_ said:
Keep blowing shit out you ass...
Nice reply. Full of wit and intelligence, as usual.

You could at least prove me wrong, after accusing me of saying things I didn't.

(Insert some retarded remark about comprehension skills.)
 
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_Kitana_ said:
Inoccent or not. Those Iraqi are at fault.
~Angel
Are you serious? I had no idea it was their fault some soldiers shot them. You go by angel? :rofl: how ironic! Someone that blames some Iraqis for getting shot by soldiers That's like seeing someone get shot and saying to the victim "It's your fault you got shot!" :rolleyes: The irony of it all....
 

_Kitana_

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junglizm said:
Nice reply. Full of wit and intelligence, as usual.

You could at least prove me wrong, after accusing me of saying things I didn't.

(Insert some retarded remark about comprehension skills.)
That is just it. You are not worth my time today. I fucking realized something today leaving for work I was so pissed off about this, your stupid ass thread. I sat at work thinking about things.

Thinking about a 19 year old kid that died over there. I sat there thinking about lots. Got off and drove to the grocery store and there standing behind me where some people, had a strange accent about their voice. The lady who was checking me out knew me and asked me how Jesse was doing. The man behind me go.

"You married to a Soldier..." He looked middle eastern…

which I replied, "Yes"

“Where is he?”

“Iraq,” I said.

"I am an Iraqi citizen. I have family there. I know no soldier…. But Thank you, thank your husband. I want Freedom for my family over there. I want them to see.”

I look at the man and shook his hand and did the best I could not to cry and he through his arms around me and said,

“We will Find peace soon.” he said. “ There is, its not safe… lots of death and fear… but I know peace will come and I can return home.”

I got in my car and started it. I sat there and thought about this what two years of my life with my husband was worth. I realize this sacrifice is not for people like you Jung or for any of the ones sitting their whining and crying over lost life. I realized then that it was not just my husband and my soldiers blood spilling of this single chance at freedom but the Iraqi as well. I didn’t have enough words at that moment to say to this man… I Simply hugged him back shock his hands paid and left.

I thinking now that you aren’t worth my time debating or becoming upset cause right there baby is what this is all for.

HOPE FOR A BETTER TOMORROW.
 

Jung

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#16
Ok, I won't argue with you anymore. At least you make me laugh. Good post. :thumbsup:

(Goes to make up a story about an Iraqi cashier that is against the war, so that I might make a valid point.)
 
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_Kitana_ said:
I realize this sacrifice is not for people like you Jung or for any of the ones sitting their whining and crying over lost life.
The irony is overwhelming. Can you not see YOU are whining over the loss of the soldiers lives. But you think nothing of the Iraqis. So ironic....
 

_Kitana_

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#18
....

I cry over the people i know, the families i write sympathy cards too.

I cry over the things i have seen and heard from jesse. I cry a lot about what happening in iraq. Be it brithish, american or Iraqi life. There is a diffrent between my feeling of sorrow... I don't whine about it, I simply understand its a price and a sacrfice some have to pay.

as for jung. He wasn't a chasier. He was a guy behind me and it wasn't made up. But bleh nothing good ever comes out of war according to you.
 

RetArt

A Rampant Vagitarian
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You know.. It´s funny. Ironic. Retarded. Stupid. My sympathies to the brits, yanks, iraqis, polish, estonian and who ever are down there..It´s just.. THEY WOULDN´T BE THERE IF IT WERENT FOR THE HUMANE LEADERS OF THE GREAT UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
So now you care that the Iraqis lived under a tyrannic leadership.. What about then when US had some schizms with the iranis..? Then Saddam was "your man".. Do you not really remember who sold/gave the weapons for Iraqi army then. What was that country that sent chemichal weapons and such to Saddams regime...? US of fuckin´ A.. Then, possible even due to a misunderstanding of what the USA wanted, invaded Kuwait. Then it was war. You didnt get the oil. -> shit happens
then 9/11 -> (false)excuse to invade->propaganda ->invasion.

Kitana said hes 110%sure that soldiers didn´t enjoy killing... Remember Mai Lai? Hav eyou listened to the interviews of the soldiers.. Some think that "they should all be killed". "They aren´t worthy of living." "They are all terroist´s, every living iraqi is a treath to our safety.

Not saying every single one of them is "evil". propably only 2 in a 1000. But still..
Who gave you the right to go there anyway.. Not the UN. Not the rest of the world. You justified yourself, based on false accusations. And no... Killing civilians. Maybe causin´ a civil war. Don´t forget that Iraq was very poor already before the war. Starving.

Get the fuck out of there. But no.. let´s re-elect that little leprecorn of a motherfucker
 
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#20
_Kitana_ said:
nothing good ever comes out of war according to you.
So you think good things come out of war? tell me what does a tremendous loss of life is that good Kitana?! Is it?! according to you it is. :mfinger: :mad: