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Discuss The Welfare System

Offalittle

Window Washer
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#1
A “water-cooler” conversation today at the office turned political and I thought I would share it with the group, to get your opinion.

I was bitching and moaning about the welfare system and how I thought letting the poor fend for them selves was an effective way of “thinning the heard.” My co-worker raised a point I had not previously considered.

He viewed the payment of welfare as an extremely effective tool to mange the lowest class. The upper class paying to keep the lowest class just above the minimum standard of living in order to avoid an overthrown of the economic and political systems of government. The example given was the French Revolution where only two classes existed and the living conditions grew so horrible for the lower class they figured death was better than life like they had. And the possibility of change was worth risking their life.

The modern system of welfare is an upper classes attempt not to give food and shelter to the lower class out of kindness but instead is a small price to pay for security.

It made me feel better about the welfare system, though I can’t say for sure I agree one hundred percent. So I thought I would bring it to you, my fellow spewers of rants, to get your take.

Talk amongst yourselves.


And yes, I know “spewers” is not a word, but I liked it anyway.
 

Pachyderm

I really did.
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#2
That is a really good point, and I do remember learning about the aristocrats in long ago france. But in long ago France, the classes were wealthy and poor with no inbetween. Although it does balance out the powers and benefit both the rich and the poor, it's efforts are futile when catering to the middle class. The people on welfare tend to abuse it and many of the lower-middle class to the higher-middle class are really hard working Americans and they feel they are being 'gypped.' They might be the hardest working class, save the many legitimate lower classmen, and it's like a slap in the face to these blue collar workers. You know?
 

dustinzgirl

Banned - What an Asshat!
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#3
You know what, fuck you. Do you even know what it is like to be so fucking poor you do not know where you and your children are going to sleep that night or what you are going to eat?

Do you think people want to be on welfare?

I hate people who sit and bitch about the state of our "welfare" system. You have no clue at all.

Say I am 20 years old with 2 kids and my husband lost his job (where he made about 22$/hour) became a raging alcoholic and I had no where to go, nobody to help me. I take my children to battered persons advocacy becuase they will help me. I have no education. I get my ged while on Welfare. Am I less of a person than you? Would you care? What if I was your mother or your sister? What if I was YOU?

How dare you judje peoples situations. That is not only immature, but very sad that you are so vain you think it is OK for us upperclass taxpayers to keep the lower class people in "check" You make me want to fucking puke just by this post.

I hope you wind up on welfare, just so you will know what it is like.

What would you do?

I have said it before and I will say it again.

Do Not Bitch About Something You Know Nothing About And Are Not Willing To Change It.

Grow up.
 

morelos

lexicon incognito
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#4
ok. i wasn't gonna speak out on this, but now i have no choice.

the people abusing the welfare system are a tiny, tiny minority and consume a negligible amount of your tax dollars.

likewise, the people committing homicide and vehicle theft are also a minority, but they're all you read about in the newspaper.

it works the same for the welfare cases. you never hear about the people who simply use the system. you hear about the few who abuse it. it's in the nature of american media and politicians.

don't knock the welfare system until you have a better idea that leaves no more people out than the current system.

~ dan ~
 

gigarange

Flame Bait
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#5
I like that theory, entertaining yet kind of makes you happy about paying your taxes,

however the Welfare system in the US sucks, it gives you no incentive or no way to better yourself, and before dustin gets on her high horse I am not talking about unemployment or battered and abused women and children, nor am talking about those people who are unable to work due to illness or injury.

Welfare systems as I understand them are meant to be there as a safety net, a system that makes sure you don't starve or freeze to death while you try and get the training or help required so you can return to being a productive member of society and not a long term fix for the terminally lazy.

Whilst morelos claims only a small percentage are taking advantage of the system, those that do should be prosecuted to maximum extent of the law just like the murderers and rapist, because not only are they cheating those of us who do pay into it welfare but they are also cheating those that truly are in need of a helping hand.

I don't claim to know the answers but I grew up in a large family without a lot of money and the incentive to keep out of the welfare system was pride, and that pride insured that I would learn a work ethic that would insure I was always employable.

as it happened I did fall on hard times not long after serving my country in the armed forces, and christ knows my family and I were thankful for the benefits we recieved, but we were not so fucking lazy or stupid that we would spend our days living off the system or lower still sitting around in a haze of dope and alcohol devising ways to screw the system to our advantage like so many do.

In short we have much to be thankful for, but it wont last forever if we don't stop the bastards that are ruining that system ( not to mention preventing many others from getting started) for those who need it.


I feel better now
 

Offalittle

Window Washer
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#6
dustinzgirl said:
Say I am 20 years old with 2 kids and my husband lost his job .....Grow up.
Sounds like the person in your story made poor decisions. And, as is typical in today’s society, doesn’t want to own up to them.

Here are a few I can pick out;

1) Dropped out of high school.
2) Started having children too young.
3) Choose a poor mate.

Who fault is it? Not mine and not yours, unless this story is about you. But, we have to pay for those poor decisions. And as long as I am paying for it, I can comment on it.

I do feel better knowing my money is used to keep the lower class from rebelling.

And yes, I do know people on welfare. They are there because they made poor choices.

Deal with yours.
 
#7
I do not support welfare; I resent being forced to pay into a charity. If I choose to give money to someone because I am feeling generous, that is my choice. However I feel it is wrong for any person effect “mandatory charities.” We become so resentful of it that we wind up like mariakynn who demands that those who receive charity look and act at all times like beggars; or at least constantly in a state of more poverty than us, the taxpayers.

I agree with Offalittle in that those who are on the welfare system are there to some extent as a result of their own actions. However I do not think it’s as simple as “dropping out of high school” or “teen pregnancy.” I believe there are underlying social reasons why people make these so-called bad decisions; and that is what we should be thinking about in our discussions of the welfare system. Why is it that we have so many who drop out of high school, get involved in these abusive relationships, etc? Why do so many people turn their backs on “respectable” society? Could it be because respectable society has turned their backs on them? Could it be because they were raised with beliefs different than yours?

I think these are the issues that we should be concentrating on. Aimlessly throwing money into the welfare pot doesn’t make our poor go away, it only makes them look a little cleaner when we’re standing together in the grocery store. I feel that there are a great deal of people who abuse the system, far more than morelos would indicate.

For the record, I am a high school dropout, yet I today I have a respectable career & have never been on welfare. Mysteriously, I’m also somewhat literate. And I would not choose to say that any of this was a “struggle” for me, so I really don’t understand what the huge fuss is. If there’s no jobs, create one. Really. Humans are supposed to be adaptable.
 

Pachyderm

I really did.
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#8
I have been talking this over with a friend and while I believe to some extent there are people on welfare from there own doing, they can't exactly abuse the system (from what I know, feel free to correct me and I am sure you will).
She told me it is a five year program andit is apparently very hard to get on to. Anyway in reply to Crazy Shannon, I believe you can rise above any situation if you truly want to and have the will power and ambition. A lot of people think they are stuck where they are and supressed with no way out, but you're proof of some of that being bullshit.
As for young adults having children, I really have no pity for them because they could have totally prevented that, and if it was an accident the first time, then why would you have another? I think it's not hard to see that your husband is a drunk....
But I do agree with dustinzgirl somewhat, in the fact that people don't know the real circumstances to which people are on welfare and it's not really fair to judge someone in which you don't exactly know their situation. It's a touchy subject and I could go both ways.
 

Infected_enigma

I pwn and you know it
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#9
Offalittle said:
I was bitching and moaning about the welfare system and how I thought letting the poor fend for them selves was an effective way of “thinning the heard.”
I always saw this as a good way to do it too. We already have too many people in this world causing over population, and it is really sterotipic (sp) but it seems like a lot of the poor people who get welfare and food stamps and leech all the money off the government they can. A good example of these type of people would be all those white trash fags you see on Jerry Springer. Personally anyone who goes on that show or even wastches it for more then 10 seconds should be punished by death or "thinning the heard".

The thing about the money coming from the rish and going to the poor is not what I think. It's taxes so it's everyones money, and if we didn't have welfare there would be a lot more money to put into schools (which would then cause people to become better educated so they won't end up needed welfare in the first place, although most uneducated people just didn't care and wouldn't pay attention anywayz so maybe it wouldn't help), and things like the enviroment (sp), world hunger, and insuring uninsured kids in the USA, and most of the taxes go to the pentagon ($400 billion per year) so cutting that down by like 10% could do a shit load too
 
#10
pachyderm said:
writes:
>they can't exactly abuse the system
I am not sure why you say this. To me “abuse” is when you stay on the system even when you have opportunity to work. It is taking under-the-table and black-market money. It is taking advantage of the fact that sometimes one winds up wealthier on welfare than in a minimum-wage fulltime job. (For instance a single parent who would have to pay for childcare while at work. Many European countries have wiped out this effect by providing free public daycare to all economic classes, similar to public school systems.) I am sure you will agree that some of this abuse is possible, and therefore probable.

pachyderm said:
writes:
> it is a five year program andit is apparently very hard to get on to
Again I can’t really comment. I don’t know how hard it is, even in Canada. Can’t be too hard, because we have a lot of welfare dependents here. And if it is hard, then it must be true that you would need a bit of ambition to receive it; ambition that could be applied to finding a goddamned job.
 

Offalittle

Window Washer
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#12
dustinzgirl said:
This is sheer arrogance and you make me sick.
Well that makes me feel a little better.

Why don't you counter with an intelligent, well thought out rebuttal? I may very well have made comments within my post for comedic effect but the points are logical and the questions valid. This is how grown adults behave. They communicate ideas and opinions for the betterment of society. You should try it one day, who knows, you may like it and we may learn something from you. It is worth a try.
 

dustinzgirl

Banned - What an Asshat!
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#13
Offalittle said:
They communicate ideas and opinions for the betterment of society.
Please tell me how saying that you are glad to help keep the lower class from rebelling betters anyone in society besides yourself
I am glad to help people better thier lives, not demean the poor.
 

morelos

lexicon incognito
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#14
offalittle said:
Why don't you counter with an intelligent, well thought out rebuttal? I may very well have made comments within my post for comedic effect but the points are logical and the questions valid. This is how grown adults behave. They communicate ideas and opinions for the betterment of society. You should try it one day, who knows, you may like it and we may learn something from you. It is worth a try.
ok. i'll help her out.

the "lower class" you speak of was the one that begat america. they were tired of oppressive, taxing rule by the british aristocracy.

the 'lower class' you speak of undid dictatorship in france.

can you honestly say you sleep better at night knowing you contribute to the perpetuation of a system which keeps disadvantaged people down?

that's bad in every way for you. that gives you criminals to steal your car, rape your wife, and kidnap your children. that gives you a weakened economy, international mockery, and a slow progression to the ultimate dichotomy: the very few very rich, and the extremely numerous very poor.

invariably, when you get to this bourgeoisie / proletariat system (think feudal england, think christendom, think microcosmic plantation economies in the south, think czarist russia) you are raising the temperature of the fire underneath society.

the more rights you take away by "keeping the lower classes from rebelling" is exactly what ultimately compels the lower classes to rebel; give them nothing but desperation, and they'll act accordingly by mobilizing against you.

read a history book. read a sociology text.

i think i'm starting to see the problem here. let me guess, you're 16-20, white, heterosexual, male, and in an upper-middle-class or wealthy household. you never once thought that you might have to work right out of high school to provide for yourself or for loved ones (be it to contribute to your household or a family of your own).

what i've noticed is intelligence doesn't relate IN ANY WAY to wealth. educational opportunity, however, does. the problem? plenty of bright people are poor and have no ability to bring their skillsets to their fullest potential.

perpetuating such a system only holds us back as a society.

~ dan ~
 

dustinzgirl

Banned - What an Asshat!
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#15
Thanks More, for typing pretty much the same thing I meant just in bigger words and complete sentances!
 

Pachyderm

I really did.
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#16
You cease to amaze me Morelos. I would give you a point for that one, but aparently I have to "spread it around."

Anyway, I am not very familiar with how the welfare system works, and I don't know how long it is, and I am sure, it's only logical that you have to have an income below a certain amount. Welfare can't just be given to anyone. I am not saying people don't abuse the system, because anywhere there is an advantage to take, people will abuse the chance. I am sayin, however, that there is probably very few advantage takers, if you will. But since I hear it is only a limited time program, you can't really abuse the system to the extent of being relatively set for the rest of your life, or more than 5 years for that matter. I believe that welfare is designed to help you obtain a job and make ends meet and get you back on your feet. And again, you can't really judge people on welfare, because they all have different circumstances, and most have jobs. I am not really familiar with the statistics on that, but it is a safety net, like some, I can't remember who, said.
 

dustinzgirl

Banned - What an Asshat!
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#17
Most families on welfare are there becuase the main provider lost his job. If you have a family of 5 and once brought in a 5-7 g a month income, then you loose your job and have to start from scratch becuase there is not any positions available in your industry, then that is what you would face. Such as, mine shuts down, logging industry shuts down, Norton, Sony , Intell, have all closed thier doors. But, according to the original poster of this thread, that would make you lower class while he is upper class, and is just trying to stop you from rebelling. And all of this is due to your poor life choices, according to him.
 
#18
dustinzgirl said:
Most families on welfare are there becuase the main provider lost his job. If you have a family of 5...
Maybe couples who have only one spouse working, and that “breadwinner” job position being a precarious one susceptible to layoffs, should not be choosing to produce five children.

morelos said:
>bourgeoisie / proletariat
>perpetuating such a system only holds us back as a society.

Okay, so repression of the lower class leads to revolution. Why is that bad? Buying them off with $300 and $150 worth of food stamps a month does . . . what exactly? Provides them with just enough that they can survive with cable tv? Does it make them any more educated and able to step “up” in to middle class? I think not . . . welfare is suppression; it makes one dependent; & those on welfare, as long as they are fed, will never fight back. They will dope, drug, brainwash themselves before that. This is what we have today, fallen across the lower and middle class: a mass of meek unquestioning citizens, each dependent on the government in different ways; so many injustices that occur before our very eyes, and we do not revolt, because it cannot occur to us, because it has been programmed out of our minds.
 

Offalittle

Window Washer
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#19
morelos said:
can you honestly say you sleep better at night knowing you contribute to the perpetuation of a system which keeps disadvantaged people down?

It does warm my heart to think my literary styling is reminiscent of a 16 year old, however my birth date is in my profile. As for the rest of your attempt to guess my social status and upbringing, I see no need in correcting you, it has little impact on this topic and I doubt you would believe me anyway.

I guess, if I understood why you feel our system sets these people up to fail and even more so keeps them from succeeding I would better understand your view. I just don’t see it. Please explain.
 

Offalittle

Window Washer
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#20
dustinzgirl said:
But, according to the original poster of this thread, that would make you lower class while he is upper class, and is just trying to stop you from rebelling. And all of this is due to your poor life choices, according to him.
I never said I was upper class. I made references to upper and lower classes. And when explaining an idea I heard, also stated that I had not decided if I agreed with it.

You immediately were angry about an idea I brought up and a question I asked. Go back and re-read the first post and your first reply. In my opinion you are taking this way to personal. I mean, “Fuck you” was in your first sentence.

I included myself into the group paying because, I do pay, they are called taxes and most everyone pays them, putting me in the same class as the vast majority of the US population.

And yes, I do think some people want to be on welfare, I have heard some say as much. Those that truly don’t want to sponge off the state, don’t stay on long, go back to work, pay taxes, and therefore sit right along side with me in middle class America.